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View Full Version : Weird World War (Round IV): Hitler Doesn't Declare War On The US


Chris
12-25-2010, 03:58 AM
Timeline

7th December 1941: Japanese forces attack Pearl Harbour. Owing more to luck than judgement, the carrier USS Enterprise manages to get into attack position and launch an attack against the Japanese fleet. Although the American pilots suffer heavy losses, they manage to sink a Japanese carrier along with most of its crew. The Japanese CO, already timorous about the operation, chooses to withdraw rather than hunt down the remaining American ships. It is a decision that results in his relief by Yamamoto.

8th December 1941: The US, UK and assorted minor powers declare war on Japan. Much to Churchill’s alarm, however, the Germans do not declare war on the United States. Two days later, the Japanese sink two British battleships, humiliating the Royal Navy.

11th December 1941:US forces beat off a Japanese attack on Wake Island.

In Germany, Hitler is undecided. His Admirals want to go after the US, noting that an undeclared war has already been going on in the Atlantic. On the other hand, the Japanese haven’t had an overwhelming success and Hitler – a profound racist – isn’t really confident in the abilities of the ‘little yellow men.’ The US success at Wake Island causes him to consider delaying the declaration of war – besides, as the situation in the east worsens, the Nazis have too much else to worry about.

12-18 December 1941: Japanese continue to press the offensive. Germans start falling back from Moscow. Hitler declares himself supreme commander of the German Army.

Hitler makes another peace offer to the UK. In order to concentrate against the USSR, the German Navy will unilaterally withdraw all ships from the Atlantic (mainly u-boats) and stop attempting to starve out the British. The u-boats will be redeployed to the Med and the convoy routes to Russia. This comes on the heels of an Italian success with human torpedoes, which sink two British battleships.

In the meantime, the Germans make another decision. It is time for the holocaust to begin.

20th December 1941: With the Battle for Wake Island still underway, Churchill and Roosevelt meet to discuss the war. Unfortunately, with the German refusal to declare war, Roosevelt is unable to take the US into the Atlantic War. Worse, there are questions being asked about supplying the communists when the war material could be used against the Japanese. In a series of discussions, the US basically agrees to continue supplying the UK – which is also at war with Japan – but to cut down on the lend lease sent to the USSR, which has refused to declare war on Japan. The British will pull back from Singapore and start building up a new army – in theory, to wage war on Japan – in India.

January 1942: The Russians begin a concentrated advance against the Germans, who are still falling back from Moscow in disarray. The war in the desert is still seesawing back and forth, but the deployment of additional German u-boats and aircraft to the area results in increasingly heavy losses for the British. The Japanese are still advancing, but facing stronger and more determined opposition. Although Singapore falls at the end of the month, the victory is sour because the British pulled out most of the troops and redeployed them into Burma and India.

February-March 1942: The massive Russian offensive starts out well, but then begins to fall apart as the Germans launch a series of counterattacks. Hitler, now supreme commander, congratulates himself on his own wisdom in not declaring war on the US, as it allows him to forward far more forces to the east. Stalin, in public at least, is undeterred by the loss of most lend lease, but the Russians are very aware that it will reduce their own production. They need supplies of everything from trucks to radios and they’re not going to be coming from the US anytime soon.

As the Philippines fall to the Japanese, General Macarthur is killed by a Japanese air raid. Admiral Nimitz is appointed supreme commander of the Pacific War. The US plans to build up the USN and large forces in Australia and India, before crushing the Japanese like bugs.

The Japanese High Command is concerned. Although they have been successful, they have not destroyed the USN or forced the US to sue for peace. Accordingly, Admiral Yamamoto decides on a plan to draw the remains of the American fleet into battle. As the Japanese learned that their carriers were vulnerable at Pearl Harbour, they decide to be far more careful with how they use them.

April-June 1942: The war news isn’t good for Churchill. The UK gets a surprising morale boost when German paratroopers, attempting to land on Malta, are slaughtered by the British defenders, but even so, it is becoming harder and harder to send ships through the Mediterranean. Hitler keeps pressing the Spanish into recovering Gibraltar and, even through the Spanish are proving resistant, the last thing Franco wants is to be on the wrong side of the war. If Hitler wins, he isn’t going to treat the Spanish too well.

In the east, the Germans have regrouped and started their summer offensive against the Russians. Hitler has targeted Stalingrad for occupation, allowing the Germans to break through to Baku and seize the oil wells. The Russians are attempting to stop the Germans from advancing, but the Germans are still better than them at armoured combat and outfight the Russians. In theory, the Russians have endless manpower, but Stalin knows that the Red Army is actually losing its mobility. The Germans score several impressive successes that destroy entire Russian armies. The only bright spot is that the partisan war is taking a huge toll on German morale and manpower.

The US and Japanese navies fight it out over several weeks in the Corel Sea. There is no single decisive battle, although both sides are itching to fight one. Instead, there are brief encounters and several losses to submarines. US submarines have been redeployed up to sink as many Japanese ships as they can. Admiral King, CINC USN, is very keen on it and so it happens. On the surface, the Japanese are still winning; underwater, the story is very different.

In Burma, the Japanese Army mounts an offensive that is supposed to take it to the gates of India. They run into a reformed and revitalised British/Indian Army and, in a series of bloody battles, are driven back into Burma. British logistics are insufficient to take the offensive – Churchill is worried about losing one of his few armies – but honour is satisfied.

June-December 1942: Disaster strikes in the Mediterranean. Malta, under constant bombardment, is finally starved out after a disastrous attempt to resupply the Island. The Island reluctantly contacts the Italian Navy and offers to surrender. The Italians, smarting under endless German scorn, accept the surrender and occupy the island. In a gesture of respect, Mussolini allows the British officers and men to be interned in French North Africa rather than sending them to POW camps. Hitler is furious, but in the wake of the victory, reluctantly accepts his decision.

This is followed rapidly by a second disaster as Rommel breaks out of his box and streaks across the desert towards Cairo. This might not have been a total disaster, were it not for the uprising in Egypt and rioting in the British rear. The UK is forced to fall back to the Suez Canal, allowing the Germans and Italians to occupy most of Egypt. The Egyptians welcome their new overlords, convinced that the Axis merely intends to defeat the British and then leave. They’re deluded. The British position disintegrates as uprisings between Arab and Jewish factions in Palestine divert British forces, allowing the Germans to get across the canal. In delight, Hitler promotes Rommel to Field Marshal and appoints him supreme commander of the Middle Eastern region. (This is at least partly a jab at Mussolini.)

Calamity strikes as German forces enter Palestine and close in on Jerusalem. The largely-Jewish defenders of the city, suspecting their fate, prepare to fight to the death as the British Army withdraws through Saudi into Iraq. Rommel is prepared to treat them as legal combatants and allow the civilians to withdraw with the British, but he is overruled by a furious Hitler, who delegates the solution of the ‘Jewish Problem’ to the Grand Mufti and his men. The ensuring slaughter destroys the Jewish defenders – although not thousands of civilians, who unaccountably make it through the German lines and down into Iraq.

Although few are aware of it, the Japanese expansion has reached its zenith. They have occupied more than they expected to hold, but looking at the Pacific, Yamamoto knows that they have only a few months before the US becomes mightier than they could ever understand. The submarine campaign is starting to bite.

In the East, German forces finally take Stalingrad after bitter fighting and break through to Baku. The Russians don’t go easily – the oil wells are destroyed before the engineers are evacuated, making repairing them a pain – but as rebellions break out all over Central Asia, the Soviet position starts to disintegrate. The Russians find themselves forced to pull their troops out of Iran (occupied jointly with the UK in 1941), leaving a weakened UK to handle security alone.

Stalin has a problem; it’s a big one. His army is powerful, but largely immobile. It’s a sledgehammer, which is only useful when the target decides to stand still and be hit. His factories are ordered to start producing trucks instead of tanks, but that makes the Red Army weaker. He needs help from the United States, but that isn’t going to be easy. The Polish Vote in the US is very determined that Stalin should be made to pay for his treatment of Poland in 1939 before he receives any help from the US. Stalin is willing to make whatever promises are necessary, yet the Poles insist on more before any aid is sent. The Russians allow thousands of Polish refugees to slip out through Iran (before the Germans cut the links), but it isn’t enough. Matters explode when the Germans discover the mass grave of Polish officers, killed by the Russians. The Russians attempt to dismiss it as German propaganda, yet the Poles refuse to believe them, as do die-hard anticommunists in the US.

To add to Stalin’s woes, Leningrad finally surrenders towards the end of the year.

Hitler finds himself caught on the horns of a dilemma. On one hand, he has been far more successful than he dared hope. On the other, the German Army is exhausted. He decides to hold on to what he has and prepare to advance on Moscow in 1943. Speer, appointed Minister for Production, is working wonders. By 1943, the Germans will be much more powerful and dangerous.

The collapse of the British position in Africa brings Vichy France into the war as Hitler starts tightening the screws. The French find themselves trapped between two fires; if they help Hitler, they are not going to receive any consideration from the allies, but if they don’t, they will be destroyed. Vichy reluctantly sends some French troops to Russia, where there isn’t such a great chance of the troops defecting to the enemy.

Roosevelt studies the end of the year with some satisfaction. True, the US isn’t at war with Germany and isn’t likely to be anytime soon. On the other hand, the US’s war production is reaching much higher levels and the Allied armies are becoming far more powerful. India is producing a massive army, armed by the US, while even the Chinese are showing signs of being prepared to fight. And, as they are receiving effectively free lend lease, the British are getting more powerful too. Perhaps they can beat Hitler on their own…

January-May 1943: In a desperate move to prevent the Americans from building up and then crushing the Japanese, Yamamoto leads the Japanese Navy and Army in an invasion of Australia. (The Army, which wanted to invade Russia, wasn't keen on the idea and only reluctantly took part.) Unluckily for the Japanese, they underestimated both the strength of the Australian and American armies and the USN, which had received new carriers from the US. The ensuring series of battles resulted in the destruction of Yamamoto’s fleet and several Japanese divisions. The atrocities the Japanese committed when they landed on Australian soil convinced the Australians that the only good Japanese were dead Japanese, resulting in the near-complete annihilation of the Japanese.

Pushed by the US, Anglo-Indian forces advanced into Burma and down towards Singapore. The Japanese Army, stunned by the scale of the disaster down under, either tried to fall back or died in place, fighting savagely. General Slim didn’t try to be clever and used vastly superior firepower and airpower to crush any Japanese who seemed determined to resist. After the way they’d been treated during the occupation, the Burmese were more than willing to assist the British in any way possible.

This is something of a relief for Churchill, for the UK isn’t doing well elsewhere. The Germans have started to advance through Syria and into Iraq, provoking riots and rebellions against British rule. The British have started to fall back towards Basra, unable to get a pause to rebuild their armies. The Germans have been trying to talk to the Saudis to convince them to join the war, but the Saudis keep spinning between German and American representatives. The US’s oil interests in the country might, Hitler reasons, pose a call to war, so he refrains from pushing the Saudis too hard. The collapse of British power in Iraq has also brought the Turks into the war. They recover Mosel and other lost territories, but refuse to go any further.

Germany itself is changing quite rapidly. Speer has started to employ women in the factories, freeing up hundreds of thousands of men for military duties elsewhere. Hitler and the old guard of Nazis don’t approve, yet in the flush of victory they feel that they can roll back the changes later, after the war is won. The Germans are also pressing the Italians to improve their own forces, rebuilding the Italian Army with German or Russian weapons. The results are not as poor as one might think.

June-July 1943: In the east, the Germans have redeployed their armies and are now advancing on Moscow, taking on heavy resistance as they press against the city. The Red Army is still tough and has plenty of fight in it, but many senior communists know that the end may well be nigh. The Germans press onwards against stiffening resistance, determined to do the job properly this time. They deploy their allied forces to take as much of the suffering as possible, maintaining German forces for the final push. By the end of June, they have surrounded Moscow and sealed it off.

A brief probe into the city reveals that the Russians have turned Moscow into a fortress, determined to hold out as long as possible. Hitler wants to order the German Army into the meatgrinder anyway, but his Generals convince him otherwise, reminding him of what happened when the Germans went through Stalingrad. The Germans offer to accept surrender, yet no one in Moscow believes their honeyed words. The city will have to be starved out.

Stalin throws his last cards into the pot. The Russians promise the world, literally. Poland and Eastern Europe will be free to do whatever they like after the war. French Communists are encouraged to attack the Germans and divert what they can of German strength. American and British Communists are urged to demand intervention, although there is little the Western Allies can do. Churchill orders British forces in the Middle East to mount an attack on the Germans, yet it isn’t enough to divert German attention. The Russians even launch biological attacks with the remains of their biological weapons program, infecting a few hundred German soldiers. The Germans stamp on it hard and retaliate with chemical weapons.

The chemical weapons tip the balance of power in the dying city. An NKVD officer is gunned down by a civilian he is trying to bully. Fighting – and repression – spreads rapidly, with fear and hatred tearing the Russians apart. The Germans sit back and watch as the starving Russians rip through their own defences, breaking down into chaos. The chaos even starts to spread outside the city to the redoubts in the Urals. Thousands of Red Army soldiers, in scenes like they had in the First World War, just start heading home. Others, knowing that the Germans will show them no mercy, refuse to flee. No one ever found out what happened to Stalin. He just disappeared in the chaos.

The Germans enter Moscow and secure the remains of the city. They’re exhausted, but they won. Over the next few months, they will redeploy their army and start coping with the remains of the Russian government.

August-December 1943: As the Germans grow more powerful, the Japanese start to wither on the vine. American submarines, joined by UK and Australian boats, continue to slash through the Japanese shipping, slowly starving the Japanese to death. With the remains of the Japanese Navy scattered, the USN starts raiding Japanese-held islands, hunting for targets of opportunity. The massive army and USMC the Americans have created is put into action, securing vital targets and allowing others to wither and die.

Anglo-Indian forces have, despite mounting concerns about Iran, pushed down and recaptured Singapore, before starting to push up towards Thailand and French Indochina. The French (and their Japanese masters) have been having colossal problems with a fellow named Ho Cho Minh. The OSS is quite happy to supply him with everything he needs to make their lives miserable. Although Churchill has his doubts, an independent Vietnam is definitely on the cards. The French will never be allowed to recover their colony. The Thais surrender when the army reaches their border – they were never very keen on fighting – and accept token punishment.

Towards the end of the year, American bombers start hitting Japanese cities. The Japanese Government is divided. Some want to admit that the war is lost and seek terms, others intend to fight on, reminding them of the days in Japanese history when all seemed lost, before the gods intervened to save the faithful. After a quick bloodletting, the militarists are in control and Japan’s course is set. They will fight.

Roosevelt has been getting more and more annoyed with China. The US has funnelled in colossal amounts of weapons, food and other vital supplies, even to the point where they have been placing Chinese demands above American or allied demands. The results have been mixed. The Chinese have fought the Japanese in places, but broken far more often. General Stilwell knows exactly why; the Chinese Government is weak, corrupt and as much a massive blight on the country as are the Japanese. Even though the Japanese are losing elsewhere, they are still strong in China.

In Russia, Molotov finds himself the head of a reconstituted government based in the Urals. The Russian system has been largely shattered. Only hatred for the Germans kept it going under the pressures of the war. For the moment, the Germans cannot get at the new government, but they’re in control of the most important section of Russia. Over the next few years, if they cannot be stopped, they will use it to bootstrap themselves as far forward as the Urals, if not as far as the Far East. Even so, there is little that the provisional government can do to stop them. Even their manpower – largely from non-Russian groups – is unreliable.

The Germans have their own problems. They redeploy large parts of their army to cope with endless partisan attacks across Russia, using the most ruthless methods possible to crush the insurgents. Various German units have been – unofficially – experimenting with coming to local accommodations with the Russians, or even employing Russians as auxiliary units. They find that Ukrainians will be quite happy to grind the Russians into the soil and vice versa. If the Germans could give the Ukrainians a little freedom, they might be the most loyal supporters Hitler had. Nazi racial theories make it impossible, though.

Churchill is finding his position increasingly untenable. More and more of the British Establishment is coming to the conclusion that the Germans are unbeatable and the war is lost. He orders the transfer of British and Indian units from India to Iran and Iraq – with American support, the British logistics in India are much better than they were – and uses them to prevent the Germans, who are operating on a shoestring from going any further. Even so, now that the Germans have effectively crushed Russia, they can start funnelling down troops and supplies into North Iran.

Roosevelt is willing to do as much as he can, but Congress – now Republican and anti-Russian – places limits on American involvement in the Middle East. The British Army is much stronger than it was, yet the Germans are receiving their own supplies through the Mediterranean. The fighting surges forwards and backwards in Iraq without a clear winner.

January-April 1944: The US has taken and occupied a number of islands close to Japan, intending to use them as a base for invasion. With heavy American bombers flying from those islands, Japan is burning every night and losing the war. Even so, the government is still in firm control and the Emperor is a prisoner in his palace.

The Germans don’t realise it at first, but they’ve actually stumbled across a treasure trove. Deep within Moscow, untouched by the fires, are the NKVD archives. When they finally discover them, they discover – to their horror – that the British had been reading their codes all along. The hellishly-efficient Russian spy network had penetrated both Britain and America, to the point where they knew more than Roosevelt about many subjects. Worst of all, the Germans know about the atomic bomb.

Hitler is alarmed, to say the least. He had always dismissed atomic science as Jewish science and therefore worthless. Now, he finds himself facing the possibility of an Anglo-American super-weapon. He orders a crash program into developing and producing a German atomic bomb. He also orders the German intelligence service to work on reopening the links to the communist spies, in the hope that they can be taped for Germany. The Germans, already working on rockets, would be supremely powerful if they managed to mate rockets and atomic bombs.

The fighting in Iraq continues to stalemate until the Germans manage to start pushing troops down from Russia. The Iranians, who are sick and tired of British domination, revolt, forcing the British to pull back from Basra and escape. The Royal Navy evacuates what it can as the German air force starts hacking away at the remaining British positions. German logistics are poor, allowing the more experienced British commanders to give them a series of bloody noses, but they’re still advancing.

Churchill faces a vote of no-confidence in the House of Commons and loses. Technically, this should lead at once to a General Election, but the Conservatives and Labour manage to work out an agreement that postpones the election until after the war is over. Lord Halifax becomes Prime Minister pro tem. Churchill is packed off to India to serve as Viceroy.

To Roosevelt’s dismay, the new British Government reaches out to Hitler, seeking terms to end the war. Halifax isn’t a peacenik – he trusts Hitler about as far as he could throw the Houses of Parliament – but he knows that Britain is at the end of its endurance. The country is bankrupt and dependent upon American charity. The peace talks convene in Sweden and, after much arguing; finally end the war, at least for the moment.

The British recognise German primacy in Europe and their conquests. The Germans recognise the remainder of the British Empire, splitting Iran down the middle and sharing it between the two powers. The smaller powers get rewards of their own. The Turks get a chunk of Iraq, Italy gets a chunk of Africa and Vichy France gets Syria. The Spanish demand the return of Gibraltar, but the British refuse, backed up – oddly – by the Germans. Hitler doesn’t feel like doing Franco any favours. The British are also compelled to repudiate the Free French.

Despite Japanese protests, the British remain in the Pacific War.

May-July 1944: The USMC storms ashore in Japan, following a final offer to accept surrender that was rejected by the Japanese Government. The early days are savage, with Japanese forces using suicidal tactics and civilians to soak up American fire. The Marines rapidly learn to take nothing for granted and start refusing to accept surrenders, believing that most of them are faked. The US Army follows, spreading out to hold and secure the remainder of Kyūshū. Atrocities are common on both sides.

They discover that the Japanese civilians are starving to death, literally. The militarists have been diverting all of Japan’s production to fighting the war. What little food there was left was often destroyed by allied bombing raids. Many civilians, particularly away from the early landing zones, are listless and unconcerned with the war, just wanting it all to be over. The death rate is staggeringly high. Although senior officers disapprove of it, it isn’t unknown for American servicemen to make deals with Japanese women, feeding them in exchange for sex.

The general collapse spreads as the US mounts a second invasion, this time on Honshū. The Japanese fight savagely as the Americans advance on Tokyo, but listlessness and defeatism is spreading throughout the island. The Emperor is finally driven to order a surrender, only to discover that no one will listen to him. Tokyo burns as allied bombers hammer the city, before the American army advances into the slaughterhouse. The Japanese city isn’t well designed for fighting and the capital falls rapidly. Disease and deprivation stalk the ruins like…two giant stalking things. The Emperor is killed in the fighting, leaving the country without anyone who can surrender. The Americans eventually take most of Japan by killing anyone who offers resistance. Most of the Japanese civilians are dying and unable to fight, or even to cooperate.

Japanese units outside Japan have mixed reactions. Some are willing to surrender, recognising that the war is lost. Others are reluctant to surrender, including the Japanese forces in China and Korea. Urged on by the US, Chinese forces start pushing at the Japanese, but the Japanese fight savagely to remain free. China won’t be liberated for a long time, if ever.

Hitler and his country are preparing themselves for peace. Recognising that some of the social changes won’t go away, the Germans plan to keep most of their army mobilised and handling counter-insurgency duties in the occupied territories. The locals who welcomed the Italians and Germans – particularly in the Middle East – find out that they have a habit of outstaying their welcome very quickly. The Egyptians discover, to their horror, that their country has been partitioned between the two main Axis powers. Their attempt at an armed uprising against the Germans results in a quick massacre. The Germans are not interested in bringing peace and freedom.

Worse, known to the outside world, the Germans are completing the Holocaust. 99% of the Jewish population of Europe is either dead or in hiding.

August-December 1944: The British population is quietly relieved that the war is over, although the country is in a very poor state. A General Election brings a Labour Government into power, but the country has very little money to pay for much-needed repairs. There are demands for mass demobilisation, yet the British Army is needed in the Far East. Attlee is forced to tolerate it because the US is willing to pay for British help. Without US support, the British are going to go down hard.

Roosevelt is determined to fight for a fourth term in office, despite his own tiredness and failing health. His campaign is almost torpedoed when the Germans attempt to reactivate the soviet spy network, branding Henry Wallace as a Russian spy. Selecting Truman as his running mate, Roosevelt campaigns on his successful war record and finally wins re-election. It doesn’t last long. Two months after winning, Roosevelt’s heart finally gives out and he dies. Truman becomes the President of the USA.

The war in the Far East is slowly winding down. With US support, Korean insurgents have started routing the Japanese, forcing them to flee for their lives or surrender. The Koreans are not too interested in accepting surrender, unlucky for the Japanese. The Chinese are fighting the remains of the Japanese Army, but they’re also clearly building up for a civil war. The nationalists are determined to exterminate the communists. With anti-communism growing within the US, it’s certain the US will provide support.

Churchill finds himself surprisingly popular in India, as the war has actually proven a boon to the Indians. Even so, it is gently, but firmly made clear to him that India will no longer accept a subordinate position within the British Empire. Truthfully, India had been effectively independent for a long time. As his swansong, believing that a strong British Commonwealth was all that stood between Hitler and World Domination, Churchill uses all of his considerable oratorical powers to convince a united India to remain within the British Commonwealth as a full and equal partner.

1945: The Russian Government finally signs a peace agreement with Nazi Germany, although neither side has any illusions that it will last for long. Molotov just needs to buy time for the rump USSR to pull itself together again. Hitler, for his part, doesn’t want the hassle. The Germans have too many other problems to worry about.

In Western Europe, the French Resistance manages to pull off a spectacular success and kill a visiting German dignity. In retaliation, the outraged Germans burn a dozen French villages and kill over a thousand French men and women. This horrifies Truman, who has inherited Roosevelt’s fear that a united Germany under Hitler would – eventually – be a mortal threat to the United States. Truman uses the incident – the Nazis, unwisely, allowed the information to spread throughout the world – to galvanise Congress. Reminding them that the US stands for freedom and liberty, he convinces them to maintain a large military force in being to deal with a potential threat. The alliance with Britain is reaffirmed.

Under conditions of great secrecy, the US tests the first atomic bomb.

The Pacific War effectively comes to an end in 1945, although there are few formal peace treaties signed by the Japanese. The US occupation authority begins the task of reshaping the Japanese into something the US regards as more civilised, a task made easier by the massive die-off. Nearly two-thirds of the Japanese population died in the war. Japanese forces on isolated garrisons were hunted down and scattered, leaving handfuls of soldiers hiding in the countryside, unaware that the war was over.

It’s hard to tell in China, though, as the two sides promptly begin a civil war.

Technology is developing rapidly in Germany. Rockets are being launched and growing more accurate, followed by jet aircraft and even early computers. The German atomic program is lagging behind the US’s program, luckily for the rest of the world. Even so, Germany leads the world in many important categories.

1946: Despite the best efforts of many senior Nazis, Speer’s massive economic program has finally started to bear fruit. The Germans now have enough to eat and to maintain their war machine. Hitler’s social programs are also working, creating a massive German population boom. This is done through both openly encouraging mothers to have more children and, covertly, kidnapping Aryan children from Poland, France and Norway and giving them to German parents.

The conditions in Russia are dreadful. The Germans have not only removed all the Jews – not something to make the Russians unhappy – but they have proved themselves to be far worse masters than the Communists ever were. Hitler is effectively starving most of the Russian population to death, while using them as slave labour to build Germany’s network of autobahns, or forcing them to farm to feed the Germans. Unsurprisingly, the partisans keep fighting, but in the absence of any real hope they are dispirited.

Things are not much better in Europe. Pushed by the Germans, Vichy France has started a massive emigration program to French North Africa (Algeria). This is not warmly welcomed by the natives and war breaks out, at first a handful of minor riots and then a set of far more serious uprisings. The French put them down savagely.

American and German interests clash in Saudi Arabia. The Saudis think that the Germans are great for wiping out most of the Jews (Jewish refugees in Saudi Arabia have been passed on to the British or sent back to the Germans) but at the same time they’re looking at the German actions in Egypt and Palestine and they don’t like them. Truman dislikes the Saudis on principle, but the US needs to keep a major presence in the Middle East. In exchange for free access to Saudi oil, the US will safeguard them against the Germans. The Germans are not too happy about this, but reluctantly accept it.

1947: The Germans are having social problems of their own, as two of their chickens have come home to roost. In order to win the war, the Germans made massive and unprecedented use of female labour. Now, with the war won, those women are being far more assertive in the public field. They’re breadwinners; they don’t want to accept a subordinate role any longer. Even so, that brings them into conflict with the New Order, which believes a woman’s place is pregnant and in the kitchen (if not barefoot). The Gestapo can keep a lid on any overt discontent, but it is becoming increasingly evident that the power balance is shifting. Soldiers coming home from the war/deployment discover that their wives are MUCH more assertive.

The second problem is more serious. Hitler was never in the best of health, even before he started listening to a quack doctor. As he grows older, he becomes more deluded, infected with Parkinson’s Disease. The Reich faces a crisis; who, they ask, will replace the Fuhrer once he is gone? Many of the Nazi Old Guard – Goring, Himmler, etc – believe that they have a shot at becoming the boss, but the newer Nazis are less keen on the idea. Himmler is feared, but widely disliked. The issue remains underground as long as Hitler lives – loyalty to Hitler is one of the few things that binds the Nazi Party together – yet when he dies, everyone knows that the seat of ultimate power will be up for grabs.

With Hitler largely uninterested in power, the day-to-day running of the Reich devolves upon an unlikely triumvite of Himmler, Goring and Speer. It isn’t a happy marriage. Goring wants to build the air force into a global power, while Himmler wants to continue to build the National Socialist State and Speer wants a more balanced approach to military spending and building. It isn’t going to remain stable for long.

The German atomic program has hit snags. Although they are promising an atomic bomb by 1949, it is believed unlikely that they will actually make that target.

India becomes formally independent, although still part of the British Commonwealth – and, as Churchill promised, an equal voice at the table. Britain, Australia, Canada, South Africa and New Zealand make up the Council, cooperating on everything from food to defence. The British Commonwealth has its own atomic weapons program, but there will be no independent nuke until at least 1950. The alliance with the United States, however, gives Britain an extra degree of safety.

1948 – 1950: The United States, having rebuilt Japanese society, agrees to allow the Japanese some voice in their affairs. The Japanese Senate has limited local authority, although the Americans maintain control over defence and foreign affairs. The United States has also annexed a number of formerly-Japanese islands, including Taiwan and Okinawa. The US intends to withdraw completely from Japan – excepting military bases – over the next twenty years. Even so, Japanese culture has been shattered, a trend accelerated by the birth of thousands of half-breed children. Quite a number of them, much to the horror of the Japanese, are half-black!

The Chinese Civil War finally dies down as the Nationalists press the Communists into a remote area of North China and then drives them into Russia. The rump Russian government is willing to intern them, but not to give them any actual help – it would annoy the United States, which is providing the Russians with limited support. The Chinese Government, however, would remain notoriously corrupt for years, taking investment from the US and elsewhere and pocketing it. Steadily, with American and British influence along the coastlines, change begins – a slow process, but a radical one. China hasn’t had a fair government in centuries.

Truman wins re-election despite a social platform that horrifies many conservatives. In order to heal wounds within America, he has desegregated the military and launched a program intended to heal racism within the nation. Not all of his programs were popular, but with growing public revulsion at the Nazis and awareness that the Nazi Regime was just over the Atlantic, Truman was seen as a safe pair of hands.

***
In 1950, there are three powerful power blocks on Earth. Nazi Germany, dominating Europe and much of the Middle East, the United States and the British Commonwealth. The principle flashpoint lies in the Middle East, where American, German and British interests collide, with smaller flashpoints in Africa – where proxy wars are common – and between Germany and Rump Russia.

Latin America is a conflicting mass of states, with the superpowers competing for influence. The Mexican Government is pro-American, but the Mexican people are not; Argentina is pro-Axis, while Brazil is pro-American.

Although the Americans are ahead in nuclear weapons, the Germans are ahead in many other branches, including rockets, computers and military science. The USN is the most powerful naval force on Earth, yet the Germans are starting their own naval expansion program – and their newer u-boats, silent and deadly, may tip the balance if war comes.

Thoughts?

Chris

Chris
03-11-2012, 03:33 PM
How do you think this timeline would develop until 1980?

Chris

gtrof
03-12-2012, 08:17 AM
Chris here be my thoughts I'll be doing more as the day goes on, bringing it to the 1980s,

1950-1960

Germany and America are in a race for the atomic bomb. While both sides started their research during the Second World War, the Americans have more resources on hand and far more accommodating with their scientists. Germany during the decade will begin to suffer from a brain drain as more affluent and other citizens abandon the Reich for the greener pastures of the U.S. and its Allies. America has the bomb in early 1950s with Germany catching up eventually before the end of the decade. Skillful German propaganda and heavy counter intelligence efforts confuse the U.S. as to the failures of the German bomb program, preventing any chance that the U.S. military can advocate a first strike. Germany also maintains an edge in the fact they have IRBMs and are moving to ICBMs, which in a pinch could be fitted with chemical or biological weapons.

During the decade the U.S. at first relies heavily on conventional forces to ensure the security of Britain and its Middle Eastern allies. Large numbers of ground troops, aircraft, and ships are stationed in the UK and Persian Gulf. Southern England is essentially an armed camp of British and American troops. These numbers however decrease as the Western Allies move to adopt the policy of massive retaliation on Germany, following the development of nuclear weapons. The Strategic Air Command is born, the brain child of Curtis LeMay, who as in OTL, directed the destruction of Japan’s cities from the air.

Germany too fields large numbers of troops, to counter the Allied presence and also to control their massive empire. Even with its defeat, the occupied portions of Russia still see high rates of insurgent activity and terrorism. The Wehrmacht is being bled in Russia, slowly but surely. Even the deployment of elite SS units fails to stop attacks by the remaining Russians and other peoples. Settlers pushed out to the Russian steppes by Hitler’s dream, are forced to live in fortified communities, with an armed German Army or SS presence. The U.S. gives covert aid to the rump Russian state in the East to keep these attacks going. The Nazis also fine themselves suffering trouble in the occupied portions of the Middle East as Islamics and Nationalists launch attacks against their German occupiers. SS efforts to introduce a ‘Arab Solution’ to the region are stalled by the attacks.

The U.S. goes through the Civil Rights movement with an earlier effort by Truman to improve race relations. In order to win the moral high ground compared to the Nazis and to hurt the Dixiecrats, Republicans jump on the bandwagon. A republican president is elected following Truman, (maybe MacArthur rather than Eisenhower). The U.S. moves into its economic and baby boom as per OTL. The Pacific and England are the primary economic partners at this time. Japan begins to gain more anatomy in their actions as a nation state but their culture and government has radically been changed by the American occupation and invasion. China and the rest of the Pacific begin to slide to either the pro-American/UK camp or neutrality in the Cold War. India which is gaining its independence from Britain plays both the Axis and Allies against each other. Both German and American want to see the Indian Ocean under their navy. Although the Indian government is more sided towards the democracies, there is a real fascist movement in the country as well.

Germany enjoys the fruits of victory but many Germans still find their living standards below that of the average American. Certainly their political freedom is the lowest in the modern world. Although the first generations of those who have grown up with the Nazis are coming to age, a small counter-culture exists in the Nazi state. These dissidents become more exposed to outside influences in the occupied or other Axis nations.

France and the rest of Europe are either puppet allies to Germany or true ones. Italy and Spain maintain an interesting relationship, with both doing their best to be absorbed or dominated by their larger fascist neighbor to the north. Vichy France becomes the willing puppet for Germany (the Nazi version of the GDR in a sense to the Soviet Union). Although the Germans basically contort northern France and its military bases, the rest of the country is controlled by the French and their own security services. In order to offset some of the costs of their empire, the Germans allow France and the other puppet nations to have small armed forces, France possessing the largest but under de-facto German control (Italy manages to contain control of their own forces, just barely).

Flashpoints during this period are the English Channel, Middle East, and South America. Both the United States and Nazi Germany are competing for influence in the Third World. The U.S. is obsessed with the idea that fascist pro-Nazi governments could arise in Central and South America. The newly formed CIA works to keep the various nations south of the border in line. If necessary, coups are organized and coordinated by the CIA to keep fascist or suspected fascists out of power. In a difference from OTL, the United States does not oppose the rise of socialist or communist movements in these countries. They are actually the next target of the CIA is pro-democratic or military groups don’t exist in the targeted country. Germany tries to do the same, but lacks the foreign intelligence network capable of such an action. During much of the 1950s the SS has had their focus on internal security. Germany’s moves in the Western Hemisphere are far more overt, causing more tension.

Chris
03-12-2012, 08:23 AM
Cool! What about their leadership?

Chris

Straha
03-12-2012, 08:54 AM
Germany and the US probably make up and 1980 sees alot of US cars and electronics having little "made in germany" stickers on them. We probably see "nixon goes to china" moment with the reich in the 1950s.

gtrof
03-12-2012, 09:32 AM
Germany and the US probably make up and 1980 sees alot of US cars and electronics having little "made in germany" stickers on them. We probably see "nixon goes to china" moment with the reich in the 1950s.

No way in the 1950s, everything from World War II is still fresh, plus the atomic race and space race is on. The 50s are going to be as tense as the OTL Cold War. A detente isn't going to happen till more time passes, and is going to be juggled on who is charge and how extreme the Nazi leadership is.

Cool! What about their leadership?

I assume you mean the Nazis. Well in then TL you mention power becomes shared between, Goring, Himmler, and Speer (where would Gobbles fit in I wonder?). I'd assume that once Hitler is dead a power struggle ensures. Speer and his allies probably end up support Goring since he would be easy to manipulate and not long for the world anyway. Himmler would be feared by both the military and the regular party I imagine. Speer and Goring team up to prevent his taking over, with Speer being the actual brains. Eventually Himmler's power is curtailed either through the military or maybe the SS head is arranged to have an accident.

Eventually I think Speer or someone else comes to power and things change in the Reich. No democracy or anything, but more power is shared among the higher levels. Same thing happened in the USSR, the power held by Stalin was broken and given to the Politburo, something similar would happen in Germany IMHO. Maybe a Reich council or torkia is formed. The Reichstag still exists but it serves to simply rubber stamp the orders of the Furher.

I'll hopefully post the 1960s-70s later today.

Chris
03-12-2012, 10:27 AM
I assume you mean the Nazis. Well in then TL you mention power becomes shared between, Goring, Himmler, and Speer (where would Gobbles fit in I wonder?). I'd assume that once Hitler is dead a power struggle ensures. Speer and his allies probably end up support Goring since he would be easy to manipulate and not long for the world anyway. Himmler would be feared by both the military and the regular party I imagine. Speer and Goring team up to prevent his taking over, with Speer being the actual brains. Eventually Himmler's power is curtailed either through the military or maybe the SS head is arranged to have an accident.

Eventually I think Speer or someone else comes to power and things change in the Reich. No democracy or anything, but more power is shared among the higher levels. Same thing happened in the USSR, the power held by Stalin was broken and given to the Politburo, something similar would happen in Germany IMHO. Maybe a Reich council or torkia is formed. The Reichstag still exists but it serves to simply rubber stamp the orders of the Furher.

I'll hopefully post the 1960s-70s later today.

Probably. That said, Himmler has some strange ideas about the SS being a race of warrior monks, so there may be some really strange cults on the edge of the Reich.

Chris

Straha
03-12-2012, 10:37 AM
Warrior monks?

What.

gtrof
03-12-2012, 11:04 AM
Warrior monks?

What.

Himmler and to a lesser extent Hitler IIRC had a fascination/obsession with the Teutonic Knights of old. Himmler always saw the SS as a 'modern' day version of this.

gtrof
03-12-2012, 12:01 PM
1960-1970

Nazi Germany goes through a series of Cold War victories in the early 60s. First is the achievement of putting a man into space. This is followed closely by the development of ICBMs, which give the Germans a great advantage. CIA and other allied intelligence agencies can’t determine whether or not the Germans have successfully matted nuclear warheads to these missiles. In response SAC pushes through the development of supersonic bombers to join their growing fleet of B-52s (a slightly ATL version of the B-58). These bombers based in England and Iceland is designed to rocket across the continent and strike at Germany’s missiles before they can launch or go after Berlin. At the moment, Germany’s liquid fueled A-12 requires six hours of preparation for launch, making them vulnerable. This move does little to reassure the American public as news of a Nazi shoot down of a U-2 spy plane over Norway shows off the advancements of German fighter technology.

The Kreigsmarine expands its surface and subsurface fleet throughout the decade. Germany’s first aircraft carrier entered service during the 1950s. By the 1960s five German carriers are in operation but only one, the Graff Zeppelin is a true ‘super-carrier’ on par with the latest American efforts. Mostly the German surface fleet consists of destroyers, cruisers and other ships armed with the first and second generation of anti-ship missiles. U-Boat technology has advanced as well, with Kreigsmarine possessing nuclear powered attack submarines and eventually missile submarines. Despite the expansion of the navy, the Germans have few oversea allies. Projecting power beyond the North Atlantic will be a Nazi handicap for the foreseeable future.

Germany continues efforts to pacify and secure their North African/Middle East territory and that of occupied Russia. A second smaller holocaust begins in the Arab world as the Nazis work to eliminate those opposed to their regime. Puppet governments assist in these efforts and become targets of terrorism along with the Germans. Although the Germans try to keep this quiet, the news leaks into the Western press, providing a moral victory for the allies. Despite denouncing Germans, the Allies do little to actually stop it. A war is hardly an option. Instead efforts to arm and support the Islamics and Nationalists continue.

The French finally wrap up a largely unpopular war in Algeria. Only through the use of German support and instruction were the Vichy forces finally able to secure the country. The long war weakened the support for the Vichy government, increasing the number of people active in the Resistance. By the 60s the movement has become a terrorist organization (to the Germans) who assassinates senior German and French officials and bomb German hangouts in France. The Germans put more pressure on the French to get their house in order. Sudden arrests and disappearances of people in the country become common and widely opposed. Dissent in France is growing every year.

Through the 1960s the counter-cultural movement grows in the United States. However unlike in OTL there is no Vietnam War to further divide the country. With the supposed ‘victories’ of Nazism occurring during the Republican administration, democrats regain power. The democratic candidate much like in OTL would run on a program of ensuring the U.S. getting ahead once again in the Cold War (things like the missile gap). Eventually America’s space program moves along with their ICBM plans. American technical success combined with some information and personnel obtained from Germany means the USAF will field large numbers of ICBMs by the end of the decade. For much of the 60s however SACs bombers reign as the main nuclear deterrent, backed by the Navy’s carrier born planes.

In the Pacific a new economic boom begins in Japan and slowly spreads to other countries. China still recovering from years of civil war will begin to adopt some Japanese models of economic development. Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam, which gains independence from the French (who cannot hold onto the colonial procession nor are the Germans interested in taking it) adopts a socialist model of government and economics, but receives aid from the United States which seeks it as an additional ally. India stays with the British Commonwealth and Allies but still has better relations with Germany than most, acquiring some second hand Axis equipment and allowing Kreigsmarine ships to dock regularly.

One of the most dramatic events during this time period is the ‘Second Italian Renaissance’. Rome by the 1960s was becoming less than happy in being the minor player to Nazi Germany. Italy maintained an impressive (compared to Germany) military having a large navy and control over parts of Africa. Italian leaders began to move away from Germany, following less of their social policies, expanding creative thought in the country, and even suggestion some political reform. The loosening of restrictions and change in Italy’s version of fascism angered Berlin. Things heat up to the point where Berlin considered invading their ally, actively mobilizing forces. In the end the SS select an ally inside the Italian military and initiate a coup. The coup ends the process reform, but not the ideas created by the movement.

Africa during the 1960s sees a bloody end of colonialism backed with Cold War competition, leading to proxy wars. South Africa is the target of a CIA/MI6 based coup in the early 1960s. Hoping to remove the pro-Nazi Apartheid government, the coup embarrassingly fails. Following the failure the U.S. and Britain briefly considered invading the country but fears of German support for the South Africans and the launch of a larger war, cause them to back down. While the Nazis gained an ally at the bottom of the world, various colonial nations are turned into pawns in the Cold War game board.

Chris
03-12-2012, 01:37 PM
Great updates. I can't see South Africa being any more 'liberal' than OTL - I think they might be a great deal worse in this timeline. Maybe take immigrents from Germany, people the Nazis want to get rid of.

Chris

gtrof
03-13-2012, 10:55 AM
1970-1980

In a surprise to many the space race takes an unexpected turn with the United States beating Nazi Germany to the Moon. The landing occurring in 1970 was the result of renewed U.S. efforts during the 1960s. Although the Germans technically had a better space program, the Nazi leadership wasn’t interested in peaceful space exploration. Instead the Germans shift their focus to military benefits of the space race. While the U.S. is able to reach the Moon, the Nazis develop the first spy satellites, a military space station, and early satellite weapons. The Germans begin setting records for time spent in space and consider developing a reusable space craft.

Efforts to cool relations between Nazi Germany and United States and its allies publically are deemed a success but the Détente is a false one. In the mid-70s the two sign a strategic arms agreement that eliminates some of the growing nuclear arms built up by the two. However many of the agreements are mere PR ones. In the agreement the Americans agree to withdraw their super-sonic bombers from bases in England and Iceland. The bombers themselves though are obsolete, and would do poorly against Germany’s latest interceptors and air defense systems. Development of new low-level precision bombers (the American F-111 and British BAC TSR-2) is underway to become their replacements. Germany and America attempt to cap the number of missiles each side possess. Germany wishes to maintain its lead in ICBMs but the Americans offset their less numerous ICBMs with shorter ranged intermediate weapons based in England and a growing number of missile submarines. Neither side has an actual advantage.

Europe sees some bloody attacks not only on German soldiers stationed aboard but also against citizens inside the Reich. French resistance fighters stage a bold attack against Berlin’s Herman Goring Airport killing over fifty people and wounding hundreds more. Russian terrorists launch an even bolder attack, taking over a Lufthansa flight and holding it hostage for over six days in Japan. Japanese security forces ended up killing the terrorists but ten passengers were killed. Each act of terrorism sees brutal retaliations by the Germans, but they only fuel the resistance across Europe. The Gestapo and SS begin a security crackdown across the Reich, arresting foreign laborers and any German even pure ‘Aryans’ suspected of having anti-government sentiments. The paranoia during this time nearly reaches the zenith of that during the late 1930s. Eventually to prevent things from getting out of hand, the SS chief (maybe an elderly Heydrich) is removed by the Nazi leadership.

Domestically Germany is much different than that of its glory days following the end of World War II. A new generation, who has been raised in ‘peacetime’, is coming of age. Increasingly they find less to be excited about with the Reich itself. They are frustrated with a poor education system that stifles creativity, sending those technically and mathematically skilled into defense minded sectors. German art and culture has stagnated. As part of the growing Détente, American and other ‘approved’ works of art were briefly shown in Germany, France, and other Axis nations. Thousands flocked to see them, with even the worse of it being more exciting than anything produced in the Reich. Films from the outside world are traded in a huge underground system. More and more people are listening illegally to the BBC and Voice of America. Those who grow up during and after the war find this new generation lazy and decadent, not caring about the Reich.

There is also a growing divide between those living in the East and those who live in the German heartland. Life in occupied Russia is hard. Most of Germany’s wheat and livestock comes from this region. The farmers and settlers are hardworking tough people, many veterans settled in the 1950s. Unlike those in the heartland, they have to live with the threat of Russian insurgents. Mortar attacks on their homes, murders, raids on towns, have forced many citizens to live in Militärstadts, or Fort Cities. These settlements are patrolled by Heer or SS troops, surrounded by barbed wire and fortifications. The hard lifestyle has encouraged few since the 1960s to venture to the Russian steppes. People in the Reich wonder why so much time and effort is spent on those who are foolish enough to live with the terrorist Russians. The settlers in the East believe that they don’t get enough support as it is. They are the hard worker good Germans, while the people in the heartland grow soft and lazy.

America during this time is developing as well, making new breakthroughs in technological areas that Germany hasn’t. During the late 70s the start of the computer industry begins in the United States and is quickly grasped as a new market to develop and grow in Japan. By the 1980s America and Japan will be leaders in computer development. Domestically the country swings back and forth between democrats and republicans. The pointless Détente in the first half of the decade brings forth a new hardening of American political attitudes towards Nazi Germany. This coupled with new public indictments of the Nazis which sweep the free world. Children of Abraham is released in 1976. The documentary is the first major focus on the Holocaust in many years, made with interviews of surviving Jews who escaped through various means. Also included is smuggled out footage from the 1950s of the German death camps. Seeing these horrors on screen infuriated many Americans who were eager to support stiffer treatment of the Germans.

The Cold War at the end of the decade saw victories and defeats for both sides. German and Italian relations degraded by the Second Renascence see Italy acting more independent by the end of the 70s. Through a series of meetings through back channels, the Italians convey to the Americans that they are moving towards a neutral position in the Cold War, no longer willing to be German servants. This is coupled with a massive change in Spain as the fascists are quickly overturned in a series of changes to the government. Much like Italy, the Spanish too were tired of living under German dominance. Many of the same social pressures against the regime had also been occurring in Spanish society. By the end of the 1970s these came to a head and in a series of elections, a new government came to power. The news was a shock to the Germans who had believed their allies reports in the country that things were going their way. A crisis emerged as it looked like the Germans with their Axis puppets were prepared to enter Spain and restore the government by force. Only American backing of Spain prevented this, as the Germans were unwilling to begin World War III over Spain. A comprise reached by both parties was that Spain would official remain neutral. In reality however Spanish officials work to secure American ties, and if worse came to worse, fight on the allied side in a conflict.

Nazi Germany managed to gain success in Africa bringing South Africa firmly into their camp. The Kriegsmarine sent the Graff Zeppelin’s battle group in a propaganda measure to dock at new naval bases built in the country. Germany’s dominance in the south provides a windfall of important minerals and other resources. With South African forces, the Germans go after native Africans who oppose the Afrikaner regime. As the decade draws to close however U.S. and British intelligence agencies begin equipping the rebels with weapons from other sources, usually Pacific rim ones. In South America, Argentina after several years of recession suffers a military coup. The new junta in place is sympathetic to the Axis but, fears drawing an American military response if they seem to be too much in the Nazi camp. The coup in Argentina paves the way for a Republican presidential win in the 1980 election.

Japan begins to boom with its new technological development. Twenty-years after their surrender in the Second World War, Japan is vibrant democracies with a unique Pacific-American culture. Many of the racial barriers in Japanese society have blended away, due to the mixing of families back in the 40s and 50s. Although Japan is still disliked for their conduct during the war by most of Asia, the other Pacific nations have good relations. China too improves economically as new industries tap into natural resources the country possesses. Much of the work being done in Japan decades earlier now moves to China. Vietnam too begins to seek out foreign industry for its own population, offering cheap labor and resources. For the ‘free world’ economic conditions improve moving into the 1980s, helped in part by cheap oil prices.

Chris
03-15-2012, 07:45 AM
Great update. I'd expect some kind of freedom movement in Germany itself by now.

Chris

Straha
03-15-2012, 08:23 AM
A nazi dengism would be more likely than a freedom movement imo

gtrof
03-15-2012, 08:23 AM
Great update. I'd expect some kind of freedom movement in Germany itself by now.

Chris

Should I go into the 1980s and 1990s?

gtrof
03-15-2012, 08:26 AM
A nazi dengism would be more likely than a freedom movement imo

That's a good point. Would the Third Reich suffer a Soviet style collapse, or a Chinese reform with some bloodshed like Tienanmen Square.

Chris
03-15-2012, 10:21 AM
Should I go into the 1980s and 1990s?

Yes please.

I was thinking eventual civil war.

Chris

Straha
03-17-2012, 07:42 AM
Why a US/nazi cold war?

Fearless Leader
03-17-2012, 04:16 PM
While the extrapolation of the initial TL is interesting...I think there are a few problems with the initial part of the TL. Again going to prove that what makes a good Alternate history doesn't always make a good story.

First off, I think that FDR's OTL attitudes are ignored. FDR was an internationalist pure and simple, yes in OTL this internationalism was tempered by a desire to get re-elected but it was there nonetheless. FDR's personal papers show us that he recognized the threat Hitler posed and from the moment World War II began, he began working to get the United States into a place where it could affect things in Europe.

Even without a German declaration of war, FDR is going to keep up the pressure on Nazi Germany. The cancellation of Lend Lease to the USSR is a bit sudden. FDR and the internationalists are undoubtedly going to try and succeed in delaying said decision as long as possible (an argument could be made that a strong USSR ties down large numbers of Japanese troops in Manchuria...). If anything, I think Lend Lease is going to be increased in the absence of direct American intervention especially to the UK. I could see American money funding Anti-Nazi volunteer brigades and the like within the British military. I don't think Germany's going to be

The German decision to pull back it's Submarines from the Atlantic is just baffling. All of a sudden you've removed the Kreigsmarine's most effective weapon from it's most effective venue. Should Germany stick to it's word the RN's job is going to be much easier and a large number of resources can be freed up to fight the Germans elsewhere. Furthermore I have no doubt that FDR will push the USN to assume responsibility for the Atlantic just in case, especially with the Japanese doing WORSE than OTL.

That brings me to another point. The conference you have between Churchill and FDR on December 20th is the most baffling thing about the whole TL. Why are they taking the Japanese threat so seriously in TTL when they didn't in OTL, especially when the Japanese are doing "worse"? Furthermore most of their main armies in the theater haven't even seen battle yet. Churchill's decision to pull back from Singapore and the Malay Barrier is completely unrealistic given the information he has and prevalent Western attitudes about the Japanese. It took a long time for Western ideas to be broken down in OTL and I don't see why it would be happening in TTL.

If you want things to be a bit different, have the organization of the ABDA command go a bit different. Instead of being lumped in with Indonesia and Malaysia, have Burma fall under the authority of India earlier than OTL (OTL this happened in March in a too little too late moment). This alone should be enough to ensure adequate preparation and that the Burma Road stays open. Also keep in mind that the monsoon season of 1942 was one of the most intense on record and basically kiboshed any military operations in the region from Mid-April/May - Sept/October.

Also if Wake Island Holds it's going to be the rock that the IJN breaks upon. I'm guessing that the ENTERPRISE's successful attack emboldens the US somewhat. Furthermore I'd wager that the resulting carrier battle is going to tax the Kido Butai's remaining fuel reserves. They were running on empty in OTL after the attack, so with TTL's strike I'd wager that the SORYU and the HIRYU aren't detached to aid the 2nd attempt on Wake Island. Furthermore I'd wager that an emboldened US actually goes through with the relief mission resulting in the island being held. Wake's critical position is going to make it a key site in TTL's Pacific War. As soon as the Japanese are able they're going to be launching another strike against it. In the meantime the reinforced Defenders of Wake are going to be able to chew up Japanese aerial attacks.

I'm also not quite sure why Britain is doing worse in North Africa in TTL. Churchill doesn't have to worry about the North Atlantic and can focus all of his efforts on the Mediterranean. This has to affect things no? Furthermore why is there an airborne attack on Malta in TTL in 1942 no less? The mauling of the German paratrooper arm at Crete occurred before the POD and I see no reason why not declaring war on the USA would cause Hitler to do a 180 on his position towards paratroopers, pull them out of the Eastern front, and authorize an airborne operation that is guaranteed to be even more bloody than Crete. How does Hitler not declaring war on the USA cause a horrifically destabilizing riot in Egypt in TTL?

Finally regarding the Eastern Front. I have a hard time seeing how a lack of Lend Lease is going to impede Soviet defense. The British are going to be continuing to supply the Russians, even if it means giving the Russians domestic production while using Lend Lease to equip their own. IMO only when the USSR goes on the offensive is the lack of lend lease going to become apparent.

A little research would go a long way into making this TL more realistic, especially during the war period itself. Though I do believe a German victory in WWII is possible, I think that declaring war on the USA was only part of the problem. In and of itself I don't think it's enough to turn the tide of war decisively in Germany's favor. If anything you need a staunch isolationist like Lindbergh to take power in TTL in 1940. As long as FDR is in office Hitler's going to be facing a semi-belligerent USA.

NomadicSky
03-21-2012, 10:39 AM
I think this is interesting, I'd like to see more of this. I suppose the German Reich collapses like the USSR did.

Panzer
03-21-2012, 11:37 AM
Himmler and to a lesser extent Hitler IIRC had a fascination/obsession with the Teutonic Knights of old. Himmler always saw the SS as a 'modern' day version of this.

The irony of that is that Hitler had the actual Teutonic Knights thrown into concentration camps.

I think this is interesting, I'd like to see more of this. I suppose the German Reich collapses like the USSR did.

IMO this TL would be much less interesting if Nazi Germany is simply Soviet Russia with a different face, now if there was civil war or Nazi Germany collapsed into a bunch of nuclear-armed succesor states that promptly started warring with each other. . .

Chris
03-22-2012, 01:24 AM
The irony of that is that Hitler had the actual Teutonic Knights thrown into concentration camps.



IMO this TL would be much less interesting if Nazi Germany is simply Soviet Russia with a different face, now if there was civil war or Nazi Germany collapsed into a bunch of nuclear-armed succesor states that promptly started warring with each other. . .

Civil war was what i had in mind.

Chris

gtrof
03-22-2012, 11:09 AM
Civil war was what i had in mind.

Chris

I'm working on it, hopefully have it up soon.

Chris
03-23-2012, 06:24 AM
While the extrapolation of the initial TL is interesting...I think there are a few problems with the initial part of the TL. Again going to prove that what makes a good Alternate history doesn't always make a good story.

First off, I think that FDR's OTL attitudes are ignored. FDR was an internationalist pure and simple, yes in OTL this internationalism was tempered by a desire to get re-elected but it was there nonetheless. FDR's personal papers show us that he recognized the threat Hitler posed and from the moment World War II began, he began working to get the United States into a place where it could affect things in Europe.

Even without a German declaration of war, FDR is going to keep up the pressure on Nazi Germany. The cancellation of Lend Lease to the USSR is a bit sudden. FDR and the internationalists are undoubtedly going to try and succeed in delaying said decision as long as possible (an argument could be made that a strong USSR ties down large numbers of Japanese troops in Manchuria...). If anything, I think Lend Lease is going to be increased in the absence of direct American intervention especially to the UK. I could see American money funding Anti-Nazi volunteer brigades and the like within the British military. I don't think Germany's going to be

The German decision to pull back it's Submarines from the Atlantic is just baffling. All of a sudden you've removed the Kreigsmarine's most effective weapon from it's most effective venue. Should Germany stick to it's word the RN's job is going to be much easier and a large number of resources can be freed up to fight the Germans elsewhere. Furthermore I have no doubt that FDR will push the USN to assume responsibility for the Atlantic just in case, especially with the Japanese doing WORSE than OTL.

That brings me to another point. The conference you have between Churchill and FDR on December 20th is the most baffling thing about the whole TL. Why are they taking the Japanese threat so seriously in TTL when they didn't in OTL, especially when the Japanese are doing "worse"? Furthermore most of their main armies in the theater haven't even seen battle yet. Churchill's decision to pull back from Singapore and the Malay Barrier is completely unrealistic given the information he has and prevalent Western attitudes about the Japanese. It took a long time for Western ideas to be broken down in OTL and I don't see why it would be happening in TTL.

If you want things to be a bit different, have the organization of the ABDA command go a bit different. Instead of being lumped in with Indonesia and Malaysia, have Burma fall under the authority of India earlier than OTL (OTL this happened in March in a too little too late moment). This alone should be enough to ensure adequate preparation and that the Burma Road stays open. Also keep in mind that the monsoon season of 1942 was one of the most intense on record and basically kiboshed any military operations in the region from Mid-April/May - Sept/October.

Also if Wake Island Holds it's going to be the rock that the IJN breaks upon. I'm guessing that the ENTERPRISE's successful attack emboldens the US somewhat. Furthermore I'd wager that the resulting carrier battle is going to tax the Kido Butai's remaining fuel reserves. They were running on empty in OTL after the attack, so with TTL's strike I'd wager that the SORYU and the HIRYU aren't detached to aid the 2nd attempt on Wake Island. Furthermore I'd wager that an emboldened US actually goes through with the relief mission resulting in the island being held. Wake's critical position is going to make it a key site in TTL's Pacific War. As soon as the Japanese are able they're going to be launching another strike against it. In the meantime the reinforced Defenders of Wake are going to be able to chew up Japanese aerial attacks.

I'm also not quite sure why Britain is doing worse in North Africa in TTL. Churchill doesn't have to worry about the North Atlantic and can focus all of his efforts on the Mediterranean. This has to affect things no? Furthermore why is there an airborne attack on Malta in TTL in 1942 no less? The mauling of the German paratrooper arm at Crete occurred before the POD and I see no reason why not declaring war on the USA would cause Hitler to do a 180 on his position towards paratroopers, pull them out of the Eastern front, and authorize an airborne operation that is guaranteed to be even more bloody than Crete. How does Hitler not declaring war on the USA cause a horrifically destabilizing riot in Egypt in TTL?

Finally regarding the Eastern Front. I have a hard time seeing how a lack of Lend Lease is going to impede Soviet defense. The British are going to be continuing to supply the Russians, even if it means giving the Russians domestic production while using Lend Lease to equip their own. IMO only when the USSR goes on the offensive is the lack of lend lease going to become apparent.

A little research would go a long way into making this TL more realistic, especially during the war period itself. Though I do believe a German victory in WWII is possible, I think that declaring war on the USA was only part of the problem. In and of itself I don't think it's enough to turn the tide of war decisively in Germany's favor. If anything you need a staunch isolationist like Lindbergh to take power in TTL in 1940. As long as FDR is in office Hitler's going to be facing a semi-belligerent USA.

All good points, but...

The POTUS isn't an absolute dictator. FDR knew that Germany was the more dangerous threat to the US – a threat that was underlined in OTL when Hitler declared war on the USA. If Hitler had refused to declare war on the US, however, would FDR have been able to convince the Senate to declare war on Germany? FDR had political enemies and trying to widen the war would have been a godsend to them. Their narrative would have been something along the lines of ‘FDR wants to attack innocent Germans instead of fighting those nasty backstabbing Japanese – oh, and he wants to prop up the British Empire and those Finland-raping Communists as well.’

Now, it is possible that Hitler will do something that FDR can use to push the US into the European war, but it might not happen. In that case, FDR will be unable to do much to help the UK and much less to help the Russians.

Hitler’s thought processes are hard to follow, but IMHO it seems fairly clear that he held the US in absolute contempt. He simply didn’t see the US as any military threat. Bear in mind that the US wouldn't have seemed very intimidating in 1940. His declaration of war only makes sense, politically, if he assumed that there would be no significant fighting. In OTL, of course, he was very wrong.

But in this timeline, the US fought back and hurt the Japanese. Hitler was also a profound racist. The ‘little yellow men’ weren’t too impressive to him – and the US will look stronger. So I had Hitler decide to postpone declaring war on the US for a few months, just to wait and see what happens. The US gets much stronger very quickly and Hitler accordingly decides to leave the war until the USSR is finished off. And because the US looks more intimidating, he pulls back the submarines and works hard to avoid provoking an incident that will bring the US into the war.

You may disagree with me that Hitler is so rational, but it needs to happen for the timeline to work.

FDR and Churchill take the Japanese threat so seriously because – frankly – it’s the only war they have. Churchill pulls back from Malaya because the UK needs those forces elsewhere – losing Singapore would be annoying, but not fatal. There will also be more of a shipping shortage in this timeline, meaning that the troops that were sent to Singapore in OTL will probably end up going to India instead in this timeline.

North Africa is worse in this timeline because there are limits to what FDR can send via lend lease. Politically, sending supplies to the UK will be harder when the US is fighting Japan and not Germany. Maybe FDR could send the supplies anyway, but I think he’d be reluctant to spend the political capital involved. Britain also needs to be more careful with its limited resources in this timeline. In Egypt, British rule (not very concealed) was bitterly resented. If the Germans headed towards Cairo, would the Egyptians not take the opportunity to rise up against the British? This would be suicide in the long run, but they wouldn’t see it that way.

In Russia, lend lease filled a number of holes in OTL – holes which won’t be filled in this timeline. Everything from radios to trucks was sent by America – supplies that the British couldn't make up in this timeline. They’d be short on fuel, gas, rubber...the list is incredibly extensive. In this timeline, the Russians will be tough, but they won’t be what they were in OTL 1942. The Germans will still have an advantage – particularly when Speer gets to rationalise German production once they realise just how powerful the US is becoming.

Hope that all makes sense.

Chris

gtrof
04-09-2012, 08:42 AM
1980-1986

The Cold War takes some new and dangerous turns during the 1980s. A beginning to this new direction is the election of conservative governments in both America and England. While economic conditions had been favorable during the late 70s, Democrats suffered from a perceived weakness in foreign policy, things were somewhat similar in the U.K. The détente with Nazi Germany had led to defense cuts in England both nuclear and conventional. However the Spanish Crisis and the German assistance in fighting South Africa’s war brought forth a debate about the weaknesses in the defenses of British Isles. Following the elections in both countries, the conservative leaders proceeded to begin defense increases unseen since the early 60s.

Much of the defense spending is on a whole new generation of ‘smart-weapons’. During the 1970s, the defense establishments of both the U.S. and U.K found their conventional war fighting abilities inadequate. The allies had developed too great a reliance on nuclear weapons during the mid-years of the Cold War. A number of officers looked to the new computing power of microchips and other technological developments, as a way to gain an advantage over the Germans. Efforts to develop these military technologies began during the latter half of the 1970s, resulting in the first generation of these new weapons by the 1980s.

Coupled with the development of smart weapons, the Allies were matching and even exceeding the Germans in a field they had lagged behind, aerospace. A new series of fourth generation fighter aircraft began to enter service. These designs could match and exceed the vast numbers of third generation aircraft possessed by the Axis powers. At sea, the USN began to field improved missile cruisers and destroyers featuring the Aegis missile/radar system. Britain completed development of its new low level bomber the TSR-2. It was capable of both nuclear and conventional strikes using new precision weapons. Improvements were also made to a number of RN vessels, and retrofits for its two remaining full sized carriers.

The first test of new these new conventional weapons came during the Falklands War in 1982. Even with a military coup, Argentina continued to suffer economically. Mismanagement and corruption by the Junta was combined with economic sanctions by the United States following military deals between Argentina and Germany. With popularity for the regime plummeting, the Junta took hold of an old nationalistic issue, the Falkland Islands. Discussions between England and Argentina over the islands made little progress over the course of the Cold War. In the early 80s a feeling that the British preferred to be rid of one of their last colonial possessions fed a sense in the Argentina high command they could get away with an invasion. The Junta ordered the islands captured as a desperate bid to prevent a revolution.

Nearly undefended the Argentinians easily took the islands and the British holding of South Georgia. The British government was shocked by the foolish move and at first thought that fighting for the islands would be a waste of lives and money. A concern arose though that the Argentinean move could have been influenced by hardline elements in the German government. If Britain fails to challenge the Junta, then Argentina will move firmly into the Axis camp, giving the Nazis a firm foothold in South America. There is also a surprising amount of support to fight for the islands in England. Anti-fascist sentiment is high in the country. A few weeks following the invasion, the British declare an Exclusion Zone around the islands.

During the negotiations before hostilities, Britain took a tough line, demanding the immediate restoration of the islands’ sovereignty before any discussions on their future status are determined. Naturally the Argentineans refuse. The conflict escalates when Argentinean submarines are engaged by British SSNs in the exclusion zone. Fearing more submarines, the Argentineans withdraw their ships from the EZ. A month after the initial invasion, the British Task Force consisting of screening vessels and two fleet carriers moves to establish superiority over the islands and protect the invasion force when it arrives.

The first air battles go decisively in the British favor, whose carrier based planes are the latest models, going against a hodgepodge of American, British, and German jets in use by the Argentinean Air Force and Navy. Eventually the decision is made to strike against the ARGAF bases. Although risky, the carrier planes with long range bomber support from Ascension Island damage a number of Argentinean bases. Desperate to stop the RN, the Argentinean Navy sorties against the British task force. Hoping new supersonic German anti-ship missiles will give them an edge the first modern naval battle of the computer age is fought. The Argentinean Navy suffers heavy losses and withdraws from battle. The RN task force takes acceptable loses.

Eventually the British launch their invasion of the islands. Although outnumbered, the British forces use their elite troops and precision weapons well. In a manner of weeks, the Argentineans hand over the islands. An official end to hostilities occurs when anti-government protests lead to an overthrow of the Junta. The Falklands War was short and Britain paid a minimal price, with 1,000 casualties of which 424 were KIAs. Argentinian losses were higher, with several thousand casualties, and nearly 1,100 KIAs. The war however demonstrated the effectiveness of new precision weapons, and the fact that the Allied powers had a real lead in them. German experts watched the conflict with great interests. Long range German intelligence aircraft monitored the entire battle zone during the war.

The German armed forces which had once been on the leading edge of technological development, had stagnated in the 70s. Many factors contributed to this among which was the ongoing insurgent campaign in the east. High technology weapons weren’t needed for the type of war the Wehrmacht was fighting there. Neither OKH nor Berlin was worried about Russian causalities. If an insurgent camp or town was located, it was flattened, no need for precision weapons. The public pressures at work in the free societies didn’t exist in the Reich. Only German causalities were the concern. Another problem was one that had plagued Germany during the 1950s, brain drain. Nazi education had created a pool of lower quality students than compared to nations like Japan or Sweden. Those with intellectual ability felt trapped in Nazi society, unable to explore their passions under Nazi dogma. Nor were they happy with being pushed into military development or engineering. Data collected in the 21st Century shows that over 50% of Germany’s best students ended up leaving over the course of the Cold War, seeking better lifestyles and purists in free countries. In addition to these problems, Germany’s decision to support their South African ally turned out to be a major strategic mistake.

What originally was thought, that it would be a simple campaign in which their South African allies would do the heavy lifting, became a bloody quagmire almost as costly as the Russian occupation. Resistance by the ANC, Zulus, and other native groups was widespread and massively supported by the black population. As a result the enemy had a massive support base to go along with the ability to disappear into the terrain of South Africa and friendly countries to the insurgents in the north.

Although Germany had significant experience fighting against insurgents by this point, they were forced to operate at the end of a massive logistical train. The majority of the Wehrmacht’s transport aircraft and logistical efforts became tied into trying to keep the forces in South Africa supplied Many Heer and even SS troops became disfranchised, wondering why they were fighting South Africa’s war. Additionally the conflict became increasingly unpopular inside OKW. The operation had cost the military millions of RM to run, money that could be better spent on improving their forces or dealing with enemies on the occupied zones of the Reich.

American and British assistance to the rebels increased dramatically in the 1980s. Due to the failed coup in the 1960s, during most of that decade and the 70s, the rebels distrusted MI-6 and the CIA. However as the campaign stepped up against them, the African rebels out of desperation were forced to seek the democracies’ help. Covert assistance for the rebels started with basics courses on sabotage, fighting, and communication security. U.S. Green Berets and British SAS troopers run these classes in neighboring countries. Weapons are also shipped to the rebels. Much of the first stocks of weapons are from the Far East, made in Russia or China. As the conflict goes on though the U.S. and British begin to part with advance weapons of their own, such as TOW ATGMs and Stinger SAMs. These weapons take a toll on the Axis aircraft and vehicles.

The South African War is just one of a number of factors starting to affect the domestic stability of the Third Reich. A large number of the German population finds the far off war unpopular. While German propaganda tries to cover up the losses, nothing can hide the wounded veterans who return home and those who don’t come back at all. The resentment for the war is shown as Gestapo arrests of German citizens climb nearly five percent during the first half of the 1980s. Many of these arrests are made for ‘criminal protests’ or attempts to organize strikes. Even dissident in the military is on the rise during this period, with an increase in medical referrals, transfers, and other measures by soldiers to try and avoid assignment to South Africa. The settlers in the East are also against the war, since those resources could be deployed to support them. This further increases the divide between those in the heart of Germany and the homesteaders in the East. Right behind the South African War, the conflict in the occupied zone is the second major foreign policy complaint of the Reich’s heartland. Even among the government, the conflict in the East has long lost any sense of purpose. There are those who still believe in the greater Nazi ideals laid out by Hitler and Himmler. These older leaders are dedicated to continuing the defense of the ‘living space’.

Problems grow inside the Axis puppet states as well. Vichy France was already a little different from the rest of the Axis. While its leadership was dedicated to National Socialism, the people of France never particularly embraced the concept. Resistance activity reached a peak in the 1960s, but declined during the 1970s. Violent overthrow of the Vichy was replaced with a new more insidious movement, internal reform. Taking ideas from the Italians, a few French government officials slowly began modifying their own version of fascism in the late 70s. Not wishing to draw the wrath of Germany itself the reforms were slow. The motivation for these reforms was caused by a resentment of continuing German domination of their policies. As a result by the 1980s France was growing more vocal in its protests of Germany. The first mass public demonstrations began in 1982, with a march through Paris demanding a greater independence from the Reich. French riot troops cracked down on the march but more would continue in French cities for the rest of the decade.

The war in South Africa takes a major turn as the African masses in the country begin moving towards a general uprising in 1986. Hoping to eliminate public support for the rebels, Pretoria orders the forced removal and destruction of a number of black villages and even whole cities. The citizens are moved into work camps and many are executed for supposed assistance to the resistance. These camps are the first step in the beginning of new massive concentration camps. Smaller death camps had existed but now the South Africans feel that eliminating the troublesome population as the Germans did to their ‘undesirables’ is the best solution. As the Afrikaners move to begin their ‘Final Solution’ to the black problem, the resistance acts.

Large scale attacks occur against the white sections of the major cities, assassinations of South African officials begin, and the resistance launches bold attacks against South African and German bases. Black neighborhoods targeted for emptying into camps are turned into blood slaughters as South African police, riot troops, and army personnel are met with armed resistance. Many of the skilled workers who are white in the country avoid reporting to work or make plans to leave the country. Despite orders from Pretoria to force people to work, many of the whites refuse. Dissent among the white population of the state reaches an all-time high.

Caught in the middle of this expanding civil war are the German forces. Causalities mount not only from actions in the field but conflict being brought to their own bases. Mortar and bomb attacks on German facilities skyrocket to occurring almost weekly. German aircraft civilian and military are targeted by insurgents with MANPAD systems. Ships loaded with Nazi goods or supplies for their forces are hit by speed boat bombs. In Berlin the leadership of the Nazi Party begins considering a pull out as the South African state implodes. A small group argues the Germans should invest even more, deploying more divisions and using German military strength to keep the South Africans afloat. The debate goes on between the ‘Pull-Out’ and ‘Dive-In’ groups in Berlin for most of the year. The final decision is reached following the Cape Town Massacre. Rioting in the city with its native population was overshadowed by the eventually breakout of conflict between the white South Africans themselves. An effort by South African paramilitary forces to bring whites back to work lead to an execution of over thirty men and women who refused to go with the soldiers. This causes an explosion of outrage in Cape Town, with white South Africans striking back against their government. The sign that a civil war inside the larger collapse of South Africa gives the ‘Pull-Out’ faction in Berlin the final leverage it needs to secure a decision to begin withdrawing Nazi forces.

The pullout by the Germans becomes the most defining event for the remainder of the 1980s. This decision would be the first domino that begins a series of events that lead to the German Civil War and the collapse of the Nazi government.

Chris
04-10-2012, 03:58 AM
Great update!

Chris