Opinions on GBW's idea for undersea civ

[Diamond]

In the Ideas thread, GBW brought up this idea for an entry:
There's a little something I want to run by everyone here at the request of Diamond. I have an idea for a non-government faction, like the Heterodox Church, that was involved in WWIV and the Time of Troubles. The point of contention is that they would have undersea colonies - without the ability to make more - on the Mid-Atlantic Ridge on hydrothermal vents for power. They would have high test peroxide propelled submarines that they use to interdict sea traffic across the Atlantic, but they attack 20,000 Leagues Nautilus-style, by ramming their waterline to sink them, though they would also have a stockpile of torpedoes.

What do you guys think? Too much? Or can I pursue it for a future entry?
Personally, I think it's too advanced for the setting, and way too advanced to have survived the Fall. I think RCAF's Ada-Baska are about two millimeters below the upper limit :D, and this idea is about five meters over.

But, this is not my own little fiefdom; it's a democratic project. So you guys vote on it, argue amongst yourselves, etc etc. Poll will close in three days.

[Bruno]

I would say Yes but downgrade it a few notches.

Say there were three bases originally but one was destroyed in the Fall while the second...had something happen to it (that the third and final base doesn't like talking about). They can't make more bases and while they have Nautilus style subs, they only have a few left and they've been duct-taped to death and back over the centuries. They have a 'presence' in the Caribbean but are super-paranoid about revealing their 'real' existence to the world. In the meantime, they've been experimenting with some genetic research which has had questionable results.

Basically make them a bit like an underwater version of that Genetic Research Lab in British Columbia that I had, only not as insane or a slightly more advanced version of that 'Super-Carrier' that's beached in California that Gulag had.

[Diamond]

You could make them masters of propaganda and disinformation, so that the rest of the world thinks they're god-like, while the reality is more like what Bruno suggested.

[GBW]

I was thinking that they would be living a subsistence existence, just at the bottom of the ocean. They have these advanced habitats around them, yes, but they have no way of making any of those materials any more. They have greenhouses that provide their oxygen and some food, and some limited farming on the ocean floor outside. One of the main things they trade with from Bermuda - upon which they're growing more food - would be bulk foodstuffs, as well as information. Their 'front' on Bermuda would display a largely agricultural people who buy a suspicious amount of food, but are able to trade rarities such as coral, shells, exotic seafoods, etc.

Also, the fact that nobody knows they're there is most of their security. Diamond's first impression is what helps with that - who'd expect them to actually survive the events of the Fall? As for the habitats, I was thinking more than one spread out so that their subs would have more range over the Mid-Atlantic to interdict traffic between Nourika and the Old World, thus contributing to the hindering of the rebuilding of civilization, like the Hadean Legions at the major canals and straits. I was thinking there might be other habitats in other regions of the world, much as the Heterodox Church does. It is supposed to be a faction that was involved in WWIV, after all.

The Kraken were a 'last gasp' kind of effort for the faction to try and play the same game the Church was able to play, but in the end was mostly failure. It's not something they have the capability of doing any more. I'm thinking they might have small numbers of docile Kraken with less intelligence that were the qualified success that they're trying to breed up to help them with the ocean floor farming and mining.

Frankly, the way I'm envisioning them is far less powerful than the Hadean Legions are, or some of the mutant breeding facilities...

[Sir Ironside]

I clicked on "NO", thought about it, and the dang thing wouldn't let me change it.

So, they can't eat kelp? Or algae?

Perhaps, over the years, they have placed buoy/snorkels with some of the habitats in shallower areas.

Oh, don't forget that they could have set up generators that draw power from ocean currents.

[Diamond]

My major gripe with this is: For a colony to last any length of time in an extremely hostile environment like the moon or the bottom of the ocean, the upkeep on the facilities housing the colony is going to be enormous. It only takes one leak that simply can't be patched any longer for the whole thing to implode. I think it's no different than postulating that a moon colony could've survived the Fall - it's just not likely.

[GBW]

My major gripe with this is: For a colony to last any length of time in an extremely hostile environment like the moon or the bottom of the ocean, the upkeep on the facilities housing the colony is going to be enormous. It only takes one leak that simply can't be patched any longer for the whole thing to implode. I think it's no different than postulating that a moon colony could've survived the Fall - it's just not likely.
A moon colony would be in a far more unforgiving environment than an undersea one. If a part of an undersea colony is compromised, water would need to be pumped out as opposed to creating more oxygen to pump back in to a depressurized portion, and an undersea colony on a hydrothermal vent has a ready source of power as opposed to a lunar colony which would need its own reactor that in turn needs fuel.

Besides, if these guys are a faction that rivaled the Heterodox Church, one would think they knew what they were doing when building their habitats when it came to materials and designing fail safes. Underwater techniques would probably be their specialty, just as genetics and brainwashing are the Church's.

[Ran Exilis]

My major gripe with this is: For a colony to last any length of time in an extremely hostile environment like the moon or the bottom of the ocean, the upkeep on the facilities housing the colony is going to be enormous. It only takes one leak that simply can't be patched any longer for the whole thing to implode. I think it's no different than postulating that a moon colony could've survived the Fall - it's just not likely.

When it comes to the durability of such colonies, it does matter what kind and type of colony you're talking about, though; the types of moon- and/or underwater colonies that could be built with present-day technology and would be the most economical to build and maintain on the short therm would, indeed, propably not last very long when the nation/greater organisation that's using and maintaining them ceases to function.

And indeed, particularly the usual "inverted aquarium"-type of underwater colony would be *very* vulnerable to leaks and such as soon as proper maintainance has come to an end.

However, when you're talking about a more unorthodox type of underwater colony, like, say, colonies that consist for 80% of autonomous, largely self-maintaining machinery and have relatively small biospheres that are basically domes/contained airbubbles that are situated under a layer of at least ten metres of thick, high-grade armour and machinery, then you've got a type of colony that could plausibly last for centuries without any real maintenance by an outside organisation.

Besides, if these guys are a faction that rivaled the Heterodox Church, one would think they knew what they were doing when building their habitats when it came to materials and designing fail safes. Underwater techniques would probably be their specialty,

This, pretty much.

Plus, this is a setting in which 'the Ancients' have already created nanotechnology, antigrav vessels and arcologies, and especially if these underwater colonies were built with the possebility of an impending fourth world war in mind, then it'd make sense that these facilities would be designed to be sturdy enough to survive at least a direct hit from a depth charge.

just as genetics and brainwashing are the Church's.

We prefer the therms psychoplasty or mind-altering. ;)

[Diamond]

However, when you're talking about a more unorthodox type of underwater colony, like, say, colonies that consist for 80% of autonomous, largely self-maintaining machinery and have relatively small biospheres that are basically domes/contained airbubbles that are situated under a layer of at least ten metres of thick, high-grade armour and machinery, then you've got a type of colony that could plausibly last for centuries without any real maintenance by an outside organisation.

Okay, fair enough. I guess I could get behind that. I still think it sets a bad precedent though. "Well, GBW had undersea colonies, why can't I have jet fighters?"

You've also got to take into account things like air purification, water treatment (for drinkable water), waste removal and purification, effects on the inhabitants psychologies and physiologies from generations growing up without sunlight and subjected to a different atmospheric pressure. Speaking of that, if the pressure of the colonies is substantially different than that of the surface, how do they deal with decompression? If it's the same pressure as the surface, presumably through technological maintenance, that's one more thing that can break.

And as far as self-maintaining machinery, sure. But nothing lasts forever, and it has been four centuries...

[Sir Ironside]

Waste could be used as power generation.

[Alex]

I like it, with GBW's explanations, but I also really like Bruno's idea. If the two can be incorporated together, it can result in a truly superior entry :)

[Gulag]

Okay, fair enough. I guess I could get behind that. I still think it sets a bad precedent though. "Well, GBW had undersea colonies, why can't I have jet fighters?"

You've also got to take into account things like air purification, water treatment (for drinkable water), waste removal and purification, effects on the inhabitants psychologies and physiologies from generations growing up without sunlight and subjected to a different atmospheric pressure. Speaking of that, if the pressure of the colonies is substantially different than that of the surface, how do they deal with decompression? If it's the same pressure as the surface, presumably through technological maintenance, that's one more thing that can break.

And as far as self-maintaining machinery, sure. But nothing lasts forever, and it has been four centuries...

Pretty much this - even if they are still functioning and self-maintaining, I expect the whole damn thing would be like Rapture from BioShock to say the least. Huge sections abandoned to flooding, others without air or power, slowly breaking down and falling apart at the best - I'd rather take my survivors, load up on survival supplies, guns and ammo and try to force a settlement on the surface somewhere.

[Diamond]

Pretty much this - even if they are still functioning and self-maintaining, I expect the whole damn thing would be like Rapture from BioShock to say the least. Huge sections abandoned to flooding, others without air or power, slowly breaking down and falling apart at the best - I'd rather take my survivors, load up on survival supplies, guns and ammo and try to force a settlement on the surface somewhere.

Exactly. Why in the world would they want to stay down there?

[GBW]

Why do people live on the northern coast of Alaska, or Lappland? Or the Amazon Rainforest or the Congo? Or go for extended stays in Antarctica even? To some people, it's the opportunity of their lifetime and, eventually, it becomes home.

Guys, seriously... we have a major city inhabited by AIs that maintain it with a horde of robots, machines that devour everything in their path, nigh unstoppable mind-collective legions, an entire civilization living in an irradiated crater in Utah, and anti-gravity vessels. You're getting hung up on the technicalities of this?

[Gulag]

Why do people live on the northern coast of Alaska, or Lappland? Or the Amazon Rainforest or the Congo? Or go for extended stays in Antarctica even? To some people, it's the opportunity of their lifetime and, eventually, it becomes home.

Guys, seriously... we have a major city inhabited by AIs that maintain it with a horde of robots, machines that devour everything in their path, nigh unstoppable mind-collective legions, an entire civilization living in an irradiated crater in Utah, and anti-gravity vessels. You're getting hung up on the technicalities of this?


Alaska, Lappland, Amazon and Congo are at least sustainable on some level because they can survive on very basic or non-existent technology. Your settlement NEEDS constant, resource intensive high-tech maintenance which won't be available for very long, even with self-maintaining machinery. Eventually parts will start breaking down that just can't be replaced, and that process will accelerate as time goes on, and in such an intense and unforgiving environment, that breakdown will happen fast and be extreme.

[Sir Ironside]

I have away that could have kept themselves going, but people won't like it.
They are early allies of the Recyclers, or they are one of the first recipients of the Recyclers' help.

[GBW]

It could also be that they've scavenged parts and materials from coastal ruins in Nourika, plus they'd probably have machine shops running off of the hydrothermal vent. They might also be buying additional scavenged materials from further inland along the Skag Way along with food through Bermuda. They could also be trading with other portions of their faction in other regions of the world.

I chose high test peroxide as the fuel for their subs, by the way, because it hydrogen peroxide can be manufactured from the sulfur deposits on the hydrothermal vents, which in turn can be distilled to form the high test peroxide. Not as tech-wankish as a nuclear or fusion reactor, I thought, and far easier for them to do than finding petroleum and refining diesel.

[Sir Ironside]

Waste can be used as fuel for special power cells, as can algae.

So, GWB, no comment on the Recyclers.

[GBW]

Waste can be used as fuel for special power cells, as can algae.

So, GWB, no comment on the Recyclers.
True, also as fertilizer for their greenhouses.

As for the Recyclers, if they had survived long enough after the Fall until the Recyclers were actually formed, they could probably have gotten along well enough on their own from then on. Besides, the agenda of this faction and that of the Recyclers might not be the same.

The Recyclers strike me as a strictly Nourikan faction that is a faction on their own, in competition with all the others who have their own agendas. The Hetrodox Church has their agenda that sees Nourika as a backwater good only for finding artifacts, the Skytraders are interested mainly in keeping themselves afloat as an important trading faction, the Brotherhood of Spiral and the Shining Way are anti-mutant, etc. These factions may find common ground from time to time, but are in the end out for their own agendas which aren't compatible with the others.

[Gulag]

It could also be that they've scavenged parts and materials from coastal ruins in Nourika, plus they'd probably have machine shops running off of the hydrothermal vent. They might also be buying additional scavenged materials from further inland along the Skag Way along with food through Bermuda. They could also be trading with other portions of their faction in other regions of the world.

I chose high test peroxide as the fuel for their subs, by the way, because it hydrogen peroxide can be manufactured from the sulfur deposits on the hydrothermal vents, which in turn can be distilled to form the high test peroxide. Not as tech-wankish as a nuclear or fusion reactor, I thought, and far easier for them to do than finding petroleum and refining diesel.


Though not without its own dangers. From Wikpedia:

Distillation is extremely dangerous with hydrogen peroxide; peroxide vapor can ignite or detonate depending on specific combinations of temperature and pressure. In general any boiling mass of high concentration hydrogen peroxide at ambient pressure will produce vapor phase hydrogen peroxide which can detonate. This hazard is mitigated, but not entirely eliminated with vacuum distillation. Other approaches for concentrating hydrogen peroxide are sparging and fractional crystallization.

Since many common substances catalyze peroxide exothermic decomposition into steam and oxygen, handling of HTP requires special care and equipment. Notably, the common materials iron and copper are incompatible with peroxide, but the reaction can be delayed for seconds or minutes depending on the grade of peroxide used.

Small hydrogen peroxide spills are easily dealt with by flooding the area with water. This not only cools any reacting peroxide, it also dilutes it thoroughly. Therefore sites that handle hydrogen peroxide are often equipped with emergency showers, and have hoses and people on safety duty.

Contact with skin causes immediate whitening due to the production of oxygen below the skin. Extensive burns occur unless washed off in seconds. Contact with eyes can cause blindness, and so eye protection is usually used. Protective 'moon suit' style clothing which does not spontaneously absorb or combust with peroxide is de rigeur.

[Sir Ironside]

Why give them some artifical islands?

[RCAF Brat]

It could work, but these guys would have to operate under some strict limitations.

1. You'd need to find a shallow part of the mid-Atlantic ridge, say <2000ft deep, preferably closer to 1000ft. That way even the wanked Pre-Fall tech would have less difficulty standing up to the enormous pressure that the thousands of feet of water is going to place on it.

2. Most of the base would be burrowed deep into the rock beneath the seafloor. The rock would help bear the pressure and thus reduce the risk of flooding. Expansion would be severely limited by the very high risk of tunnelling into a fracture in the rock that is open to the sea, and thus the risk of accidentally flooding a very large part of the base.

3. Everything need to be crumbling, and their infrastructure, including what is needed to keep them alive, is kept together by jury-rigging and pure dumb luck. It also has to be unsustainable, and the end is fast approaching. These guys have twenty years left, tops, and they may or may not know it. And if they know, they may be beyond caring.

4. A feud with the Heterodox, that they (the underwater guys) lost, could work to keep them underwater. The Heterodox would have forgotten them, believing them exterminated, while they haven't fogotten, and are consumed by undying hate. They don't care about the rest of the world. indeed the world can burn, so long in doing so the fires consume the Heterodox. Creating the Kraken would fit with this, as they let them loose and don't care what happens next, so long as it harms the Enemy.

[Bruno]

A feud with the Heterodox, that they (the underwater guys) lost, could work to keep them underwater. The Heterodox would have forgotten them, believing them exterminated, while they haven't fogotten, and are consumed by undying hate. They don't care about the rest of the world. indeed the world can burn, so long in doing so the fires consume the Heterodox. Creating the Kraken would fit with this, as they let them loose and don't care what happens next, so long as it harms the Enemy.

I like this part. Maybe the reason they aren't carving out a settlement on land is precisely because they're 'hiding'?

[Sir Ironside]

This is something that could be thrown in, islands made out of genetically modified coral. The islands are hollow, and house much of their civilation.

[RCAF Brat]

I like this part. Maybe the reason they aren't carving out a settlement on land is precisely because they're 'hiding'?

That is one of the reasons that I put that in. It gives them a nice internal check that ensures that they won't expand. A traumatic event in their past ensures that they have little to no real future.

That they were like a bug underfoot to their enemy never even occurs to them, nor does the very real truth that such a powerful force would not even notice or care if they did expand and show themselves. If they think and are certain that revealing themselves is suicide, then that perception becomes the reality that they are in, and thus they won't reveal themselves, even if doing so would save them from extinction.

[Sir Ironside]

What if, before the Fall, a company like Diseny built a series of "artifical" islands. Using gentically modified coral, and a framework, they grew the islands. Then, via more genetically modified plants, they covered the the island. When the fall happened, GBW's people moved in.

[GBW]

I just want to state that though these guys are a faction, in practice I mean for them to be more of a natural hazard that prevents most sea travel and adding to the slow communications and danger of travel of a post-apoc setting. They're basically people who just survive in their underwater structures and sink ships with single-mindedness.

[Diamond]

So the consensus seems to be that they should be allowed, but with suitable alterations, which lots o'folks have offered here. So, this being a democracy and all, submarine away, GBW.

Alls I can say is nobody better bust out the jet fighters next turn... :D