Death to the Dragon - A Draka TL

[Tzeentch]

2779
The World September 13th 2003, Just Before the Beginning of the Final War

In the days before the Final War, the Domination of the Draka grew increasingly more brazen, with multiple cases of sabre-rattling and incidents that nearly broke out into war, but the three-way Cold War (between the Soviet Union, the nations of the Alliance for Democracy, and the Draka, and the fear of nuclear attack, kept relations still-existent, although very cold and almost non-existent. It was Taylor Gaynor, Archon of the Domination, who would begin the great conflagration that was rightly known as the Final War...

Archona, September 13th 2003

Gaynor looked at the documents provided by the Domination's military-political analysts and strategisers. The Domination needed to expand, to grow in size, for it simply could not sustain itself if it did not conquer somewhere soon. Unrest was growing, growing higher than ever before. But the Draka were hemmed in, surrounded by nations whose conquest and pacification would take up more resources than could be taken out of them. There was the Soviet Union, too gigantic to ever occupy even with every Serf. The Austro-German Empire, a people that would not break easily and would be of too much value for the Alliance for Democracy.

British India, already drained of resources by the British, who treated the natives with much more respect than the Draka. Then it hit him - Britain. Britain had barely held on to its colonial empire, by the skin of its teeth.It was weak, and close to his armies. It was a small island, unimportant, liberal, a good navy but a small military.

The only worry was that the USA would aid them - but they were an ocean away, even with their Iron Eagle Gunships, their top-notch orbital facilities and weapons, their first-class military and their massive arsenal of nuclear weapons. All of these achievements were unmatched by the Draka, but Gaynor didn't worry, the first Drakensis had reached military age. Soon, he would be vindicated, and the Final Society would be born.


Three hours later

Gaynor began his speech, softly.

'Men and women of the Domination,' he spoke. 'Today, the Draka begin their meteoric ascent into the pages of history. Today, we crush the British. Today, we crush all who stand in the path of the Final Society, the Domination of the Draka! We will bring glory to our race, the Master Race. And in doing so, we will crush the Alliance for Democracy, forevermore. We are the masters, they shall be the slaves for all eternity. We are the Draka, and we are Dominant, we shall conquer this world and all beyond it because we must and because we can. We are the natural race of Masters unfettered by religion, unfettered by creed and class. We are the Übermenschen, we are supreme! Death to all the enemies of the Draka, and may they suffer a thousand agonising torments. Today, the Alliance falls.'

Ten minutes later, the missiles launched.

[Neroon]

Is there a prequel of some sort to this? The current situation hardly with the Canon Final War after all. Seems the Draka are barely larger than their Canon-TL post WW1 borders.

[Tzeentch]

The United Kingdom, September 13th 2003, 13:00

The missiles hit, in total, 12 cities, annihilating them with 50 kilotons of nuclear fury. The rest of the missiles, which would have taken out 50 more, were taken out of the sky by ABM systems. But the losses were still deep, and as the Drakan fleet sailed toward the channel, they had no idea of the nationwide fury they were about to experience, not just from the United Kingdom, but from all the non-Draka nations of the world, for this cowardly, obviously unprovoked attack.

The Royal Navy prepared to battle with the Drakan fleet in the last great sea battle since the Second World War. But they would have no idea of what was going to happen...

New York City, September 13th 2003, 13:10

'My god,' President Alexander Fairfax said as he looked at the report. 12 cities in Britain, just...gone. Nuked by the damned Snakes. How could they, how could they even believe...

He was not going to allow this to end pleasantly. This would end when the blood of every single person who believed in their repellent ideology was on the walls of Archona, when their cities had been scorched with nuclear fire, when every single last member of their military-government complex had been invited to a bullet party by him personally. He grabbed a phone, dialling in the number of the Secretary-General of the Communist Party, Mikhail Gorbachev.

This meant war.

The Channel, September 13th 2003, 14:20

The Draka fleet was taking its good time as it sailed across the channel, unheeding of the danger. Draka arrogance had ensured that they did not scramble fighters as soon as they prepared to sail for England. It was a mistake that cost them the battle.

To Captain Terrence Maccon, 1st Squadron, flying his Iron Eagle gunship, everything was fine. He dropped one missile, flying downward at hypersonic speed, down toward the Drakan flagship, the aircraft carrier Iron Fist.

The missile seemingly came out of nowhere, penetrating the flight deck before striking with the force of 0.5 kilotons of TNT in the exact centre of the ship, blowing it in half. Strategos Ingolfsson was absolutely terrified as his flagship exploded under him, mere seconds before he hit the water at high speed, breaking all the bones in his body and tearing the head off his shoulders.

More missiles rained down, tearing ships asunder before the Drakan commanders could react. Before long, all the aircraft carriers were out, and then the fleet was simply torn apart, and soon every single ship within the Draka Calais Fleet had met a watery end.

Invasion of Britain was now impossible.

Moscow, September 13th 2003, 14:30

Mikhail Gorbachev made his decision.

The Draka deserved to burn in nuclear fire for their crimes. But he wouldn't burn them all, that would lead to Russia's reduction to a third world country, and anyway the American President wanted a massive ground campaign in the Middle East and Africa, instead he would merely annihilate all their cities in Persia and Afghanistan, then crush the survivors with the might of the Red Army.

He pressed the red button, and the missiles fired, prepared to unleash Hell itself.

[Tzeentch]

Is there a prequel of some sort to this? The current situation hardly with the Canon Final War after all. Seems the Draka are barely larger than their Canon-TL post WW1 borders.

The idea is that it's an alternate, more realistic Draka, with less sci-fi nonsense and more realistic Drakensis (with no silly pheromone superpowers).

[Neroon]

The idea is that it's an alternate, more realistic Draka, with less sci-fi nonsense and more realistic Drakensis (with no silly pheromone superpowers).
Oh goodie!
Still i'd like to see the pre-chapter1 TL at some point, please. Especially since it's more realistic.

[WKL]

Pure Epicness!

I do like how they finally get out of their wanked up world and into a more realistic world where they won't win just because they decide to. They're totally in for a rude awakening.

[Tzeentch]

Bactria, September 14th 2003, 2:00


Citizen Defender Maccon Balewhite looked at the dim sky. Kabul and several other cities were gone, there were no Strategoi at all in Bactria. There was confusion, chaos, and havoc as nobody knew who was in command. Serf revolts were happening in the mountains, but he didn't know how bad it would get. He was guarding a Drakan camp in the mountainous north of Kandahar, close to the border. That was when he noticed something coming towards him. Tanks. And not Draka tanks, Russian tanks. Red Army tanks.

Fear filled him for an instant, then the foremost tank blew his sentry post away with a single shot. Twelve minutes later, the Drakan base had been destroyed.


Archona, September 14th 2003, 6:00

Arch-Strategos Eric Von Shrakenberg looked at the reports. Dozens of cities and bases in Bactria and Persia had simply been annihilated. Centurions were commanding divisions, for Thor's sake! But Von Shrakenberg was never without a plan. After a few minutes of thinking, he decided. The Gibraltar fleet, the Domination's largest, would attack the heart of the Alliance for Democracy...America itself.

Ingolfsson Plantation, September 14th 2003, 12:00

Gwendolyn Ingolfsson, 16 years of age, smiled softly as she practised with her rifle. She was Homo Sapiens Drakensis - her mother had been selected to bear a Drakensis 16 years ago, when the program was in its infancy. Her mother, Yolande, was a Strategos in the Drakan military - a commander of 15 divisions, 150,000 Janissaries. Now she would be part of Operation Hadrian, the invasion of America.

Drakensis had several advantages over normal humans - a better metabolism, slower ageing, stronger muscles and bones, and greater speed, but they were still only mortal, still only flesh and blood. A bullet to her vitals would kill her as well as it would any other human.

But she didn't care. As a child, she had had everything done for her, no punishment, and was made to believe that she was like a god walking upon the earth. In a way, that was true.

Of the 10,000 Drakensis, 9,500 were but infants. She was needed, desperately, to help win this war. And she gladly would, for the Race.


Berlin, September 15th 2003, 0:00

The meeting took place at midnight in the Reichstag building, in the thriving metropolis of Berlin. It was between Reichskanzler Ludwig Schrodinger, and General Otto Kammler.

'Do you think we should attack the Draka?' Kammler asked.

'Ja, Herr General,' Schrodinger said. 'We've let the Dragon grow too large. We should slay it as soon as we can.'

'Agreed,' Kammler replied. 'We strike now.'


The first offensives began at 3 AM.

[Chris]

Cool!

[Tzeentch]

France, September 15th 2003, 4:00

Strategos Naldorssen was paralysed. The Germans had struck all along their border with the Draka, in the Balkans, at Italy, and at France. The initial surprise of their assault, coupled with the use of tactical nuclear weapons, had shattered Draka fortifications in France, resulting in 105,000 dead Janissaries. The losses were acceptable, for the Draka a Janissary's life was cheap, but the loss of the fortifications gave the Germans free reign in France and Northern Italy. However, the German advance had seemingly hit a lull, they were building up supplies and men for another push, this time they seemed unlikely to stop until they reached Paris.

But there was another threat, and that was Britain. She had taken a pounding from the initial nuclear attack, but she was more than capable of reaching Paris.

He had to decide which was the more pressing threat. He picked Germany. Germany had to be taken out quickly, before she launched her second offensive, because if they reached Paris, he knew he would die.

He had two million Janissaries, the elite French Legions, under his command. He decided to perform a full head-on assault. His men may be infantry, but they could break any fortification or army in their path through sheer numbers. Many were expected to die, but if they won Germany would be put under the yoke.

France, September 16th 20003, 0:00

Strategos Naldorssen had decided to send his Janissaries at the strongest point of the Draka (now German) fortifications, Verdun. He wasn't expecting what would happen to them, particularly now that the Germans had finished putting their heavy artillery in the fortifications. First, there was a rolling thunder that annihilated divisions in moments. The massed charge turned to chaos and faltered. Then, Hell itself came.

Tactical nuclear weapons made massive gaps in the assault, vaporising Janissaries and throwing them and all their equipment away like toys. Artillery rained clouds of VX and napalm down on the Janissaries, thousands dying in moments. But sheer weight of numbers pressed them on, into the hellish environment of the defences proper. They died in the tens of thousands just trying to negotiate the deadly mine-fields and fields of razor wire. Machine-guns and conventional explosives rained down.

The Draka thought that they were the masters of terror. They were wrong. What was left of the assault-force, one-quarter left, 500,000 strong, broke and ran, fleeing as far and fast as they could. The fiendish technology of war had put an end to the human wave stratagem, and this battle only marked its final death-knell.

The Drakan forces in northern France had been utterly devastated, and the Draka in Europe would never again recover. Just as General Kammler intended.

The Gibraltar Fleet, September 19th 2003, 12:00

Janissary Mbotu looked at his fellow Janissaries anxiously, the ships were dark and cramped. He had been shanghaied into this only a few days ago, during a massive conscription drive to allow the invasion of America. He had received no training, and his assault rifle made the Sten Gun look good.

They were all expected to die in the initial landings. The Draka had raised three million Janissaries seemingly overnight, and considered all non-Draka life, never mind Serf life, to be of no value whatsoever. The Americans had fortified the Gulf of Mexico, where the Draka planned to land, extremely well. Yolande Ingolfsson had not considered that this might be a failure. She had assumed, as was the prerogative and belief of many Draka, that everything would go exactly as she intended. It was the same arrogance and contempt for the enemy that had led to the Drakan defeat at the Channel.

Soon, she thought, everything would fall into place.

[archangel]

I would like to see more, too.:)

[Tzeentch]

Gibraltar, September 21st 2003, 12:00

The kinetic impactor fell from orbit at hypersonic speed and hit the Rock of Gibraltar, penetrating within and exploding like a second sun with the force of 25 megatons of explosive fury. Vaporised rock and metal formed a mushroom cloud, as chunks of superheated rock were thrown miles away. The Drakan fortress within the Rock of Gibraltar had simply ceased to exist, removing a great barrier to the invasion of Africa. More strikes would come, later. For now, chaos reigned.

New York City, September 21st 2003, 12:10

Alexander Fairfax, President of the United States of America smiled with satisfaction as he heard the news. This war, up until now, had been very much a phony war, with only the Russians and Germans making any real headway into the Domination.

Now Operation Michael was due to begin in 30 seconds' time, to strike deeply into the Domination itself.

Egypt, September 21st 2003, 15:10

Aswan was a relatively quiet city in Draka-controlled Egypt, made part of the Police Zone 50 years prior. The serfs were quiet and loyal, and the local branch of the Security Directorate had relatively little to do.

That was all due to change. Suddenly, a bunker-buster bomb fell from the sky, out of seemingly nowhere, and flattened the local Security Directorate headquarters, destroying the very bedrock under it and transforming it into a mound of rubble in which nothing could survive. More bombs fell, hitting strategic locations - train stations, docks, water towers, factories - and many other place. But the biggest one was reserved for the Aswan Dam. Three tactical nuclear missiles hit the dam,utterly destroying it and vaporising thousands of tons of water. The rest poured southward in a massive torrent, black, deadly rain pouring into it.

Meanwhile, other raids occurred. Alexandria was destroyed by 30 megatons of nuclear fury. Bases all over Egypt were bombed to nothing but rubble, Spartan and Hoplite tanks reduced to smoking wrecks with ease.

Cairo was hit too. with a 500-kiloton neutron bomb, purging all life within. Security Directorate and military headquarters, all over Egypt, were destroyed from the sky with pathetic ease, no time found even to scramble fighters or co-ordinate anti-air guns and SAM missiles. The USA , with its Iron Eagle Gunships, Phoenix Fighters, and B-99 'Seraph' Bombers, all capable of hypersonic flight, was unmatched in the skies, something the Draka learned that day to their cost.

Athens, September 22nd 2003, 10:00

Romanos Kapodistrias, former Janissary and now leader of the Greek Liberation army, smiled. The disaster the Draka had faced in Egypt, and the rapid German advance toward Paris (never mind the Soviets who now had de facto control over Persia and Bactria) had forced them to move men out of the Balkans. This had led to massive Serf revolts, ones that they would have put down if not for the fact that the Germans controlled the skies.

The Draka were idiots, frankly. The Serfs and Janissaries in the Balkans had rebelled, vastly outnumbering the citizens and the hated Security Directorate. And with the Germans air-dropping massive amounts of automatic weapons, machine-guns and Bazookas over rebel-controlled regions, it couldn't be easier.

The Draka had tried mass impalements at several rebellious villages, thinking to cow the revolters, but it just spurred them on to fight harder for the day the Domination no longer existed. Romanos looked at the Parthenon, and smiled. Greece was now almost entirely under his control.

[Alex]

I like seeing the Snakes get their comeuppance.

[Adam]

I like seeing the Snakes get their comeuppance.

Preferably with large doses of antimatter and nuclear munitions.

[CSW]

I'm not seeing a lot of storyline. Limited Nuclear warfare makes some sense, for the Draka, for the others full out nukes would seem the course of action. The German characters in particular are flat, and I can't even begin to understand how Germany could have survived surrounded by the Drake like that without being a full member of the Alliance for Democracy. So when exactly did the non-draka stop taking their stupid pills?

I like dead snakes as much, if not more than anyone, but mostly it reads like frustration porn. Drakas getting P3wned everywhere and making really stupid moves doing it.

[Das Legio]

Oh looooooooooook, yet ANOTHER kill da draka timeline.

You know, I wouldn't mind these so much if they weren't all so poorly done and done out of pure spite.

Good god... It's just gotten so old.

[Bulgaroktonos]

Oh looooooooooook, yet ANOTHER kill da draka timeline.

You know, I wouldn't mind these so much if they weren't all so poorly done and done out of pure spite.

Good god... It's just gotten so old.

That seems constructive......

Have anything helpful to add?

[Das Legio]

That seems constructive......

Have anything helpful to add?

Ok look, you are just going to have to accept some realities by now. By 1945, it will be nigh-on impossible for any Black African and quite a few Arabs to even think of betraying the Draka. By 2003, it's utterly impossible for full-scale rebellion. Also, whoever said the Draka would accept getting nuked without nuking back is just retarded. If the Alliance did this it would be MAD of the highest order.

Hell, strange as it may sound, the fact that the Alliance were able to infiltrate the Security Directorate is absurd. The most absurd thing in the OTL, in fact. What Stirling did was throw a bone fro the Alliance but it makes little sense. See, if anything about the Draka SHOULD be utterly supreme and invincible and hyper-efficient and hyper competent, it would be their internal intelligence forces. Another thing that is rather odd is that the Stone Dogs is so tame. We can make shit a hell of a lot more lethal now and that's without the suped up race, and unlimited amounts of people to experiment on.

This Timeline also does another rather retarded thing. It makes the Draka idiots and instead of fixing the OTL problems, it just reverses them. You can't change the fact that the Draka are extremely competent, suffer little if any internal dissent, and have long since figured out how to spot traitors and potentially rebellious slaves. They have also long since become immune to Victory disease and have quite likely assumed that while they are supreme, they must never forget why they are supreme. They must never relax and simply slouch into the beleif that because they are Draka they will always win. They likely assumed that it is everything that makes them Draka and not just being Draka that makes them supreme. If I were to bet, they basically took White Supremacy and looked at exactly why that is.(Going in that timeline) They likely learned that you have to stay supreme and that simply being born white isn't what makes you supreme, its is what you do. Instead of just beleiving whites are inherently superior, they likely beleived that whites are superior because_______ but it still required work to keep it that way lest they fall like the Romans did. You must also remember that they have cultivated and attracted many scientist and inventors and do not have to worry about anything below upper-middle class. They likely have a extremely high per hundred occurrence of 120+ IQ and 160+ IQ. They don't need a Draka-under class as they have serfs for that. By nature of the society, you would have very few flat-out idiots and incompetents and those that are are swiftly dealt with. You can't afford stupidity while conquering Africa and the Mideast and being surrounded by slaves. All these factors would provide the Draka both an excuse and the ability to afford killing the idiots and incompetents. By 1945 and even 1900, it is incredibly unlikely for the Draka to have fools and imbeciles that call themselves Citizens.

However, just giving the Alliance some brainpower is more than enough to tip the balance so that the Draka are wiped out anyways while the proto-Samothracians make it to Alpha-Centauri.

As far as WW2, unless you start with the beginnings of the Draka and go from there, you have to accept 2 things.

1. The USSR is utterly fucked. They have both the Nazis out for blood and the Dragon right on there border, waiting to strike. There simply is no way in hell the USSR makes it out of this conflict alive. The main reason that stopped the Nazis wasn't the the USSR slowed them down and stopped them, the Nazis simply ran out of steam. With both these threats, it is fucked.

2.The Draka have every reason to have slightly advanced tech and far superior Infantry tactics. Hell, it is more than plausible that they invented the machine gun and the Assault Rifle/Battle Rifle. Unlike America, they are nearly constantly at full-scale war and even with the Janissaries are likely heavily outnumbered. Extreme amounts of Firepower and advanced infantry tactics would be accelerated in development. Hell, they also have many reason to understand Trench Warfare the same way that the Americans did from the Civil War. Or at the very least, understand it from crushing the Ottomans and fighting with the British. As far as Aircraft and tanks, again, they will have long realized that they didn't get this far without being innovators and inventors. It is likely that they, along with Germany, will have done tank research with Russia. Except the Domination has both a massive Industry(I might get to why this is both plausible and likely) and no treaties preventing it from doing open research. They would likely see the propeller aircraft and jet aircraft along with Radar and tanks and realize that these are the weapons of the next war. Now remember, the Draka citizens are basically all comparable to the top 1-10% bracket of intelligence*, education and wealth. So while they have a small Citizen population, every ounce of it is highly educated and highly intelligent and highly driven and has almost no concern as far as labor is concerned. So as far as having a slight edge in tech and tactics, this isn't as far-fetched as it would seem.


Will talk later, have stuff to do.


*Most people are around 80-110. Most Draka would be around 115+.

[CSW]

Wow, a Draka fanboy. Again my faith in man abates...

No seriously, anyone who puts up a defense of the Draka timeline has their head in their ass. Sterling wanted to make a moral point (evil can win) and fucked it up badly. Draka society of the 20th century could not exist. Say what you will about their genetically tailored offspring, the Draka are human. Sterling's Draka do as the plot requires, nothing about their development is organic. You are supposing that a society that drills into it's men hyper-dominance at all times, and it's women that it's better to fuck each other than dirty serfs, and expect it to survive. This is a culture that would have collapsed into internecine strife before World War I. They are trying to turn normal Human Beings into psychopaths, beyond the usual human detestability, you're going to find internalized fetishes, PTSD in droves and neuroses that would put Woody Allen to shame. This is a society that is SICK, not in depravity, but in mental unwellness. This is BEFORE Nedderson.

The problem with colorblind slavery should be apparent to us all. Maybe Sterling's sexual mores blind him to this but when the Draka go from White Supremacist to Draka Domination, the thought should have gone through every Citizen's head: Holy crap, that means we can enserf Whites! But wait...I'm white too..." I'm an admirer of ruthlessness and pragmatism as much as anyone, but Human Beings are always egocentric, we couldn't survive otherwise, and if you can enslave Bulgarians who stand in your way, you can also enslave other Draka, who are also in the way.

And more to the point of the last post, I should mention that killing off the idiots and getting more intelligent is exactly like saying killing queers will cause more heterosexuality. Homosexuality is endemic to the species, you can't drive it out of the gene pool by man made natural selection. The same is true of mental retardation. Now incompetence and idiocy in the pejorative, is even MORE true. The only group in the history of man that got smarter by natural selection are Ashkenazi Jews, because the ones who couldn't get the religious teachings converted out into Islam and Christianity. But it nearly wiped the Ashkenazi out, to where they were a tiny cohort, even before Hitler. This cannot work on a dominant ethnic group.

I don't have to say anything about Draka industry, research or logistics. None of those things are possible with a society like the Draka. Evil is in the end self defeating, and they would have destroyed each other in selfish power games or they'd let that one Janissary start a fucking revolt and slaughter the Citizens, or more likely, the Janissaries would control the Draka as the Mamluks controlled Ayyubid Egypt and the Janissaries controlled the throne of the Ottoman Sultanate, and the salve soldiers of the Abbasid Caliphate ultimately played Caliph maker towards the end of that wretched state. The Nazis had a population of good, decent, moral men and women to yoke their sick fantasies to. If the Nazis had completely Nazified Germany, the Germans would have fallen on each other like wolves and wiped the German nation out.

You cannot make cooperative psychopaths. And Racism and slavery, TAKEN TO THEIR LOGICAL EXTREMES, are both psychopathic. It will destroy anyone who tries. This is poor storytelling, not just in not having a happy ending, but because it is ignorant of Human Nature.

[Das Legio]

Waaah, teh evil white racist can win. ...

You do realize that for a long time that the only people considered white by the British and their descendents was Northern Europeans, right? You also forget that the Draka never begin to see the serfs as equals, never as worth the same considerations as other Draka. As far as the psychosis is concerned, it REALLY isn't as simple as you make it out to be. And yes, you can hammer in those beliefs systems and yes, you can kill of your idiots and malcontents, and yes, you could definately kill of Homosexuality. Hell, that would be among the easiest since is such a minor minority. eEll, just keeping track of which families prodcue the gays is enough to have fully eliminated it in a mere 5 generations. Oh and what, too afraid that yes, the Draka are possible?Dear god, you act as though todays views about who is deserving of equality and consideration of equality and acceptance of human rights is the norm. As far as the Ashekenazi are concerned, they never had the numbers to begin with and to this day rely upon the mercy of their host and allies. Yes, simply killing those going against the path of darkness is possible. Hell, just killing any "Liberals" or Sympathisers along with all disloyal serfs is possible. Hell, it provides a real good reason for their being so few Draka in the first place. Those who sympathise or feel for the Serfs would all end up dead. LET ME BE VERY CLEAR WITH THIS, HAD THE DRAKA ACTUALLY HAPPENED, THEY WOULD FAR, FAR MORE DANGEROUS AND FOCUSED THAN THEY WERE. THE DRAKA IN THE BOOKS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE SUPREMELY EVIL, BUT IF THIS HAPPENED, IT IS LIKELY THAT THE DRAKA WOULDN'T EVEN WANT TO RAPE THEIR ENEMIES, BECAUSE IT IS A DISTRACTION TO THE FIGHTING AND IT IS DISGUSTING TO FUCK OUTSIDE OF YOUR OWN.

Don't you get it? The Draka aren't implausible for the logistics, African Diseases, and lack of manpower. That makes them impossible. What makes them implausible is that, in fact, they would be far fucking worse. They would be, by sheer necessity, far more efficient and have far more Janisarries than they had. It's likely that if it really happened, it would have been White Draka and Black Zulu taming and enslaving the continent. The Zulu would have been 2nd class and likely owned there own serfs, all others would be worthless. Trust me, the OTL Draka, while incredibly evil, are not impossible for their evil nor are they implausible for their evil. That just makes them unlikable. But they would be worse if they had actually happened.

You want to know the real reason why everybody hates the Draka? Because they are just a slight push. A minor throw. It really only takes a little bit of Authorial Fiat to get the ball rolling to make something like the Draka. Because they could have been that evil, they could have been worse. They could have been far more destructive. The Stone Dogs, quite frankly, should have been a true Superplague that was undetectable.

Now please, this isn't even my main point.

My main point is is that timelines like this are no better. They are no more credible nor legitimate than the OTL. They are just as retarded and just as stupid. It's not that it would even be that hard to figure out a Draka-screw. But know, instead of actually figuring it out and thinking about it, ya'll do like Bungie in making Halo3 and take the easy way out. It's boring and pointless and disappointing.

Either you take the Draka as they are or you will have to make their creation part of a larger, darker and far more ruthless British Empire that would neither be concerned for natives nor anyone else except their own. Otherwise, don't bother making another fapfic where Da ebil Racist Draka are finally defeated.

What my problem is is that it's the same thing, every single time. And it's old. It's really old. It's like watching a story of how the Nazis win but it's that same old tired shit instead of someone actually attempting a coherent story. It's like watching Brits desperately argue that no matter when the POD is, America will NEVER help the 2nd Reich in the Great War. It's old, and by now I would LOVE to see a well-done timeline where even though the Draka are as evil and powerful as they were, they still end up defeated. Not because of revolt, which is impossible thanks to the SD, not because they lose a single battle, again the SD has complete and total control over the flow of info, the Serfs would never hear of it anyways. Not because the system magically disintegrate, but because they are openly defeated in battle or atleast prevented from dominating the whole of Eurasia. And not because of some Global Holy Crusade against the Draka Society, but because the Nazis hold long enough and Europe unites with them and the Chinese/Japanese alliance holds them off along with a industrial India with tech, training and supplies being provided by proxy by the US for no other reason than war profiteering and the fact they have little to gain with most of their trading partners gone. Have an awesome Sino/Siberian Russian/ Nippon/ Indian, British Empire( Australia, New Zealand, and Domination), Nazi Europe, and the USA(Soon to include both North and South American continents. Maybe UNN, United Nations of America?) face off in a truly Global Cold War that goes hot when almost all the powers manage rail gun/DEW tech ABMs...



Actually, that would be pretty cool....

[CSW]

You want it? Write it.

But there ain't a force on earth that can stop rebellion. The only way to make the serfs from being able to revolt would be to infantilized them. But even iff you tried in their shacks they'd sing learn and grow just like the slaves of the south. You missed my point on Draka society: slavery dehumanizes on a sliding scale not just the slave, but also the slaver. The Draka could not go to these ludicrous extremes withou seriously unbalancing themselves. And to say that any society can exist without decent or change over generations is retarded. Not even the Byzantines did that.

You want a Draka fic that is plausible:
after the sucesses of the Eurasian War, the Draka fatally weaken themselves over whether they are going to really enslave the Europeans. The enslavers effectively coup the government like the Japanese military in the 30s. backed into a corner the youth and old school slavemasters of Africa find themselves fleeing into the fringes of the Empire, razing armies of Chinese and European soldiers offering them citizenship as a recruitment tool. The Dominations atomic capacity is too low to get rid of these revolts. And then the Alliance starts to play favorites...

That narrative is as old as human states. You want to be nobles in assbackwards means of production, then by all means die in the same manner. I won't write any Drakafall. I would be permabanned if I did.

[Das Legio]

You want it? Write it.

But there ain't a force on earth that can stop rebellion. The only way to make the serfs from being able to revolt would be to infantilized them. But even iff you tried in their shacks they'd sing learn and grow just like the slaves of the south. You missed my point on Draka society: slavery dehumanizes on a sliding scale not just the slave, but also the slaver. The Draka could not go to these ludicrous extremes withou seriously unbalancing themselves. And to say that any society can exist without decent or change over generations is retarded. Not even the Byzantines did that.

You want a Draka fic that is plausible:
after the sucesses of the Eurasian War, the Draka fatally weaken themselves over whether they are going to really enslave the Europeans. The enslavers effectively coup the government like the Japanese military in the 30s. backed into a corner the youth and old school slavemasters of Africa find themselves fleeing into the fringes of the Empire, razing armies of Chinese and European soldiers offering them citizenship as a recruitment tool. The Dominations atomic capacity is too low to get rid of these revolts. And then the Alliance starts to play favorites...

That narrative is as old as human states. You want to be nobles in assbackwards means of production, then by all means die in the same manner. I won't write any Drakafall. I would be permabanned if I did.
Even yours is utterly retarded. And yes, rebellion is gone because for much of the serfs, the idea is gone. Hell, most of the time their conquest are severely depopulated and their willpower utterly broken. That's the point of the Draka. They are supremely effective and have perfected the art of subjugation and enslavement. Thing is, for the serfs that don't rebel, their life is rather ok. Hell, in a legit Draka timeline, most serfs would enjoy a rather confortable, if luxury spare, existance while the Janissaries are both in much better condition and are supremely loyal. You forget that a lot of the things that brought down the old empires are neither present in the Draka nor are they ignored. They have no "Silent Majority". You forget that that is the other function of the SD. To prevent them from becoming lazy Aristocrats. But wait, theres more.

You have ignored the fact that I am merely pointing out how old and tired the same old "Mesa hate Draka they is teh implausibles" while many of these same fuckers are utterly convinced that Communism could work and Socialism is the bestest thing ever when all Socialism is leading most of the Western world into is debt and implosion. Or have you forgotten the Reason CHina is exploding is because of the introduction of Capitalism? Limited, Directed, Autocratic Capitalism but that's just in line with Chinese Culture.

You point out the extremity of the Draka? So do I. As a reason most don't want to rebel and the reason most rebellion is crushed long before it begins to forment into open revolt. They are more thorough than eithe rAntebellum South or Sparta. Those little songs would likely get serfs killed. Likely by other, more fearful serfs. You completely forget what seperates then Draka form the other slave states. They have NO tolerance whatsoever for rebellion and have every means and will to crush rebellion LONG BEFORE it becomes violent. The only songs sung are in praise of their masters. It's is likely that by 1880 that many Serfs serve in the SD, reporting any and all suspicious activity. It is likely that 99%-100% of all rebellions are destroyed before they ever get beyond "One day, we'll be free" or "Master needs to lay of". And after 1960?/1970?, I have no doubt that by then, rebellion in even thought is possible. Think 1984. Yeah, now think it is actually done. That's the problem. If the Draka manage to hold land long enough for Grandkids to be born to new serfs, they have already won.

You point out the dehumanizing effect of slavery even on the Master? No shit, it also desensitizes them to violence in general.

You think the Nazified Europe would have eaten each other like dogs? Nice fantasy. Would you like to know how long Communism would last in Russia? less then a decade.


You think the Draka would destroy themselves? You forgot the Glory to the Race part of "Service to the State, Glory to the Race!" motto. It's not until Final Society is enacted with Drakensis that what you are suggesting becomes possible. In fact, I would argue that Final Society is indeed the Final Society. BEcause the Drakensis will ultimately fail their ancestors utterly and completely. Unless a certain story I read about the Drakla kiddnapping Homo Spaiens form other timelines to cure their problems has actually been accepted by Stirling...

In short, bitch all you want and take the easy way out. I find it much more fun to find ways the Draka could have happened than to be a pussy and join the bandwagon.

[Bulgaroktonos]

I've never actually read any of the Draka series, because it sounded so wildly implausible that it wasn't quite worth reading...

The Harry Harrison of the ante-bellum period if you will.

But from what I've gathered, Stirling tried too hard to make the Draka win, rather than having some kind of serious discussion as to how evil would win...

[Das Legio]

I've never actually read any of the Draka series, because it sounded so wildly implausible that it wasn't quite worth reading...

The Harry Harrison of the ante-bellum period if you will.

But from what I've gathered, Stirling tried too hard to make the Draka win, rather than having some kind of serious discussion as to how evil would win...

My real problem is the same, tired old way that people have their wank-fantasies about the Draka losing. Not the Draka losing per se.


But honestly, I just imagine that guy being so indignant and furious. It honestly is much more fun to imagine all the little kinks and twist of just how the Draka came to be, instead of kneejerking a no answer. It's more fun to figure out how to make them both plausible and keep the power than to wank to their demise...

[CSW]

Even yours is utterly retarded. And yes, rebellion is gone because for much of the serfs, the idea is gone. Hell, most of the time their conquest are severely depopulated and their willpower utterly broken. That's the point of the Draka. They are supremely effective and have perfected the art of subjugation and enslavement. Thing is, for the serfs that don't rebel, their life is rather ok. Hell, in a legit Draka timeline, most serfs would enjoy a rather confortable, if luxury spare, existance while the Janissaries are both in much better condition and are supremely loyal. You forget that a lot of the things that brought down the old empires are neither present in the Draka nor are they ignored. They have no "Silent Majority". You forget that that is the other function of the SD. To prevent them from becoming lazy Aristocrats. But wait, theres more.

I'm stopping here, and stopped reading to boot. There's no point. Again, your argument fails to address my point: The Draka cannot physically do what they are supposed to do. You cannot extinguish the fire of human liberty (if only for the ambitious individual), you cannot have a society of ANY kind without dissent. Even Hitler's inner circle had a wide variety of what each considered National Social ism to be, from Goering's plutocratic version to Himmler's pagan occult revival version. Let's not forget the power games they played with each other even as the Allies moved in for the kill. The premise is unacceptable, because the psychological conditioning needed for both the Draka and the serfs to act this way is both impossible and even if it was, it would unhinge them. The Draka are a caricature of humanity, it's like trying to examine Jewish culture through a Nazi era propaganda film.

And I'm pretty loose on what is possible. There's a LOT Human beings can do, but they are always limited by their nature (which you and I probably agree is pretty vile). And what the Draka are is something inhuman. And the Draka are hated because we fear being that. That doesn't mean we're actually capable of getting there. The Draka cycle fails because of this overriding reality.

[Bulgaroktonos]

I'm stopping here, and stopped reading to boot. There's no point. Again, your argument fails to address my point: The Draka cannot physically do what they are supposed to do. You cannot extinguish the fire of human liberty (if only for the ambitious individual), you cannot have a society of ANY kind without dissent. Even Hitler's inner circle had a wide variety of what each considered National Social ism to be, from Goering's plutocratic version to Himmler's pagan occult revival version. Let's not forget the power games they played with each other even as the Allies moved in for the kill. The premise is unacceptable, because the psychological conditioning needed for both the Draka and the serfs to act this way is both impossible and even if it was, it would unhinge them. The Draka are a caricature of humanity, it's like trying to examine Jewish culture through a Nazi era propaganda film.

And I'm pretty loose on what is possible. There's a LOT Human beings can do, but they are always limited by their nature (which you and I probably agree is pretty vile). And what the Draka are is something inhuman. And the Draka are hated because we fear being that. That doesn't mean we're actually capable of getting there. The Draka cycle fails because of this overriding reality.

I disagree. I thought that 1984 was an excellent discussion of how man can lose his will to disagree. It is a system so perfect in its rule over the populace that it cannot be defeated....

Hopefully such a regime shall never come to pass. But nonetheless, should we not be on guard?

[CSW]

I think being on guard is pertinent. But Oceana is quite tame compared to the Domination, and as Orwell made clear it was also falling apart. That said, Orwell's theory on language restriction is actually false according to linguists. Thoughts dictate words not the other way round. Humans in Oceana would merely invent a new vocab revering to the concepts of libert the Party was trying to snuff out.

[Bulgaroktonos]

I think being on guard is pertinent. But Oceana is quite tame compared to the Domination, and as Orwell made clear it was also falling apart. That said, Orwell's theory on language restriction is actually false according to linguists. Thoughts dictate words not the other way round. Humans in Oceana would merely invent a new vocab revering to the concepts of libert the Party was trying to snuff out.

Without derailing the thread any further....

I don't think that Orwell was solely discussing the elimination of words, but the co-opting of words as well. While there might be an understanding of the concepts of freedom, liberty, etc. they already have a word for it "thoughtcrime."

[Das Legio]

The Concept of freedom is impossible to extinguish, sure. But the desire for it and the belief in attainability is.


I have just thought of something horrible and awesome....

[CSW]

The Concept of freedom is impossible to extinguish, sure. But the desire for it and the belief in attainability is.


I have just thought of something horrible and awesome....

Um, no. An indivual slave may be broken of wanting freedom, but there are those who can never be broken in their desire to be free, or more specifically, the master of his former masters. In between you have the really dangerous ones who need just the spark to mobilize towards self betterment. The most brutal slave colony in the Carribean was Haiti. This is the closest Western Civ ever got to Draka-like treatment of slaves. You know what happened? When the Revolution broke out in France, the slaves revolted and more or less exterminated every single White person on their side of the island. Even Napoleon couldn't subdue them, and they had gas chamer ships that liquidated the slaves right and left. You can brutalize a people into submission so long, beofer they are willing to die just to take you to Hell with them. That's a practical reason why slavery was largely unknown in Europe by the time of the Crusades.

Let me repeat this for you need to understand it: People as groups will NEVER be subdued unless they are wiped out by genocide. Every slave under your boot longs to cut your throat, only his desire to live keeps him from acting it out. And the day will come when even that won't be enough. Humans, by their immutable nature, are not nearly so servile as you think.

[Das Legio]

Um, no. An indivual slave may be broken of wanting freedom, but there are those who can never be broken in their desire to be free, or more specifically, the master of his former masters. In between you have the really dangerous ones who need just the spark to mobilize towards self betterment. The most brutal slave colony in the Carribean was Haiti. This is the closest Western Civ ever got to Draka-like treatment of slaves. You know what happened? When the Revolution broke out in France, the slaves revolted and more or less exterminated every single White person on their side of the island. Even Napoleon couldn't subdue them, and they had gas chamer ships that liquidated the slaves right and left. You can brutalize a people into submission so long, beofer they are willing to die just to take you to Hell with them. That's a practical reason why slavery was largely unknown in Europe by the time of the Crusades.

Let me repeat this for you need to understand it: People as groups will NEVER be subdued unless they are wiped out by genocide. Every slave under your boot longs to cut your throat, only his desire to live keeps him from acting it out. And the day will come when even that won't be enough. Humans, by their immutable nature, are not nearly so servile as you think.
And Haiti had such a low population of french it was inevitable. And they didn't have a dedicated police force anywhere nearly as powerful as the SD> Those slaves that are always yearning freedom are likely exterminated. Very quickly. and found even quicker.

You don't get it. The Draka are effective. They are efficient and they have a extremely powerful internal security force. Look, the crap you are throwing up is only applicable because the OTL versions were either far less intrusive and complete or they were far less powerful. There is a reason that your arguments aren't the ones repeated ad nauseum. There is a reason that everybody focuses on the logistics and outside intervention. Because the Draka have it locked down otherwise. Go ahead, organize a million strong slave revolt. Not only will all those slaves die, but the slaves who helped them die, and all of their families die. The most loyal and subservient slaves are the only ones that survive. You know how DNA and raising both influence behavior? By sheer force of death and the Draka purposefully breeding the loyal slaves, genetic direction will be towards those who are meeker and more malleable. those who rebel or refuse are all killed. They die. No exceptions.

Just get over it. Just deal with it. The Draka are effective and efficient slavers, and by 1900, there isn't a damn thing you can do about that. By that time, they have likely studied and perfected human psychology and behaviors just for the sake of spotting troublemakers early. I would wager that most potentially rebellious slaves never make it past 15, and the rest are betrayed by there fellows out of a perverse sense of duty and a fear of the Draka and love for there family. Wanting your future children to one day be free is pointless when any rebellion could easily result in you having no potential children. Think about it. In order for their society to survive and thrive, they would HAVE to have perfected the Dark Art of enslavement and extermination of rebels. They would have perfected the art of hunting guerrillas. That is why I keep saying a legit and real Draka would be far more dangerous than the OTL Draka. Eventually, slaves would realize hwat a damned pointless endeavor it is to rebel. And slavery in Europe ended for many fucking reasons, none of them have to do with what you are suggesting.

Your crap is pointless. Hell, this thread is stupid beyond belief. If the Draka were to do that, not only would they have an insane amount of ABMs, but they would drastically overkill the shit out of every single target with multi-megaton MIRVs' out the ass.

Actually, in the first place, they wouldn't do that. They would deploy something with a multi-year-long incubation period that is not only hyper-virulent but superbly lethal once it activates. And once it activates, it goes airborne and immediately activates any dormant virus. The initial contraction before it goes into super-virus mode could be disguised as the Common Cold or maybe even multiple diseases or none at all, so it is not only hard to detect, but hard to track. Any Draka with the capability to build the Drakensis and the Human resource knowledge of Biosciences like the draka have could build somethign like that. We already have the capability to make super-pox and super-measels, and that's without the stupidly high focus and ability to experiment upon the populace.

Just shut it. Pretty much all of your "Critisms" boil down to "Waahh, I don't like them or the premise of them". If you can't accept the base premise of something, don't bother discussing it. It's like critiquing the feddies for shit like saying they grew beyond constant warfare and what-not. It's crap. It's like criticizing most scifi for FTL. Just shut it.

[Sargon]

And Haiti had such a low population of french it was inevitable. And they didn't have a dedicated police force anywhere nearly as powerful as the SD> Those slaves that are always yearning freedom are likely exterminated. Very quickly. and found even quicker.

You don't get it. The Draka are effective. They are efficient and they have a extremely powerful internal security force. Look, the crap you are throwing up is only applicable because the OTL versions were either far less intrusive and complete or they were far less powerful. There is a reason that your arguments aren't the ones repeated ad nauseum. There is a reason that everybody focuses on the logistics and outside intervention. Because the Draka have it locked down otherwise. Go ahead, organize a million strong slave revolt. Not only will all those slaves die, but the slaves who helped them die, and all of their families die. The most loyal and subservient slaves are the only ones that survive. You know how DNA and raising both influence behavior? By sheer force of death and the Draka purposefully breeding the loyal slaves, genetic direction will be towards those who are meeker and more malleable. those who rebel or refuse are all killed. They die. No exceptions.

Just get over it. Just deal with it. The Draka are effective and efficient slavers, and by 1900, there isn't a damn thing you can do about that. By that time, they have likely studied and perfected human psychology and behaviors just for the sake of spotting troublemakers early. I would wager that most potentially rebellious slaves never make it past 15, and the rest are betrayed by there fellows out of a perverse sense of duty and a fear of the Draka and love for there family. Wanting your future children to one day be free is pointless when any rebellion could easily result in you having no potential children. Think about it. In order for their society to survive and thrive, they would HAVE to have perfected the Dark Art of enslavement and extermination of rebels. They would have perfected the art of hunting guerrillas. That is why I keep saying a legit and real Draka would be far more dangerous than the OTL Draka. Eventually, slaves would realize hwat a damned pointless endeavor it is to rebel. And slavery in Europe ended for many fucking reasons, none of them have to do with what you are suggesting.

Your crap is pointless. Hell, this thread is stupid beyond belief. If the Draka were to do that, not only would they have an insane amount of ABMs, but they would drastically overkill the shit out of every single target with multi-megaton MIRVs' out the ass.

Actually, in the first place, they wouldn't do that. They would deploy something with a multi-year-long incubation period that is not only hyper-virulent but superbly lethal once it activates. And once it activates, it goes airborne and immediately activates any dormant virus. The initial contraction before it goes into super-virus mode could be disguised as the Common Cold or maybe even multiple diseases or none at all, so it is not only hard to detect, but hard to track. Any Draka with the capability to build the Drakensis and the Human resource knowledge of Biosciences like the draka have could build somethign like that. We already have the capability to make super-pox and super-measels, and that's without the stupidly high focus and ability to experiment upon the populace.

Just shut it. Pretty much all of your "Critisms" boil down to "Waahh, I don't like them or the premise of them". If you can't accept the base premise of something, don't bother discussing it. It's like critiquing the feddies for shit like saying they grew beyond constant warfare and what-not. It's crap. It's like criticizing most scifi for FTL. Just shut it.

Civil debate and comments are encouraged and welcome on this forum. However, you could have worded your posts in this thread (such as above) much more civilly there rather than be so condescending. There's no need for that however passionate you feel about the subject being discussed. Please make sure you do so in future as impolite discourse is frowned upon here. Consider this a polite yet official warning.

Thanks,


Sargon
Moderator

[Das Legio]

Civil debate and comments are encouraged and welcome on this forum. However, you could have worded your posts in this thread (such as above) much more civilly there rather than be so condescending. There's no need for that however passionate you feel about the subject being discussed. Please make sure you do so in future as impolite discourse is frowned upon here. Consider this a polite yet official warning.

Thanks,


Sargon
Moderator
Sorry bout that.

[CSW]

Hissy fit

I'm not the one throwing the conniption here. I'm not whining, I'm pointing out the PREMISE of the Domination is psychologically impossible. Never mind that such a group could not arise out of late Enlightenment Britain. You couldn't get such a people out of Nazi Germany. I know something of what I am talking about, I have a degree in history and more than one run in with psychology. Human Beings are very fragile in the mental realm, and I've also seen and read about some of the precursors of Draka behavior, and all result in psychological unrest. You cannot take a normal human beings, and the Draka are not abnormal, and instill in them a brutish, dehumanizing, pathologically domineering ideology (this before Dominationism) and expect them to function properly in society. They'll kill each other if they don't have fits and nervous breakdowns. Human Nature is pretty rough and nasty, but human beings are not amoral beings. The only humans that are consistently amoral are psychopaths, and you cannot turn someone into a psychopath and then psychopaths are chronically unable to work with each other or others. There are successful psychopaths, but most are petty criminals in and out jail because they are immune from the virtue of discipline.

I know the premise of the Draka is garbage, beyond the heavy dosage of stupid pills the rest of the world takes in their assent. Even the notion that a slave society could hyper-accelerate scientific progress starting in the mid 19th century is so laughable I'd be in stitches if it weren't so ignorant of how economics and R&D work. I argue because I LIKE to argue. And it's not often I get to be the champion of the Human spirit, but like I said, the Draka are not organic and there not human. They do what Sterling wants them to do and nothing more. There brutality and ruthlessness would bring them down in two decades tops. They would destroy each other and their state, sorta like the Roman generals in the third century, and what the Byzantines did after Manzikert. I've seen what power lust and unbridled ego does to societies. So go on, make any point you like, but please try to address my point: human beings could not endure being Draka and would not endure being their submissive chattel

[Chris]

There are a lot of interesting points raised here by both sides, but IMHO there are some human historical points that are being left unmentioned.

It’s worth noting that the USSR never came close to losing control of Russia itself due to rebellions. In fact, IIRC, they had some minor levels of unrest from time to time, but the communists were able to keep the lid on. They had more troubles in Eastern Europe, but again, none of them came close to being able to overthrow the government.

The same can be said for the American South prior to the Civil War. The slaves sometimes revolted, often quite savagely, but none of those revolts led to either freedom or genocide – it took the civil war to free the slaves, and in many cases, that freedom was an illusion until much later. Slave revolts, throughout history, have rarely succeeded. Even the most violent upsurges in pre-communist Russia rarely changed things much.

The price that powers paid for this vast level of repression was the loss of any enthusiasm among their workforce. This, more than anything else, would doom the Draka. Their serfs could not be expected to work when there were relatively few benefits to be had. Someone capable of designing a computer chip would be equally capable of realising that they were being screwed by the system. I suspect that the post-ATLWW2 Draka would have lost groun rapidly to the Alliance, not unlike the Soviets of the Cold War era. Consider; the Soviets were remarkably good at the brute force solution and produced many brute force devices – the T-34 for example. They were far less good at anything that required genuine original thinking.

Chris

[Bulgaroktonos]

Excellent point Chris. It is too readily forgotten how depressingly easy it is to dominate people.

Despite all of our innate desires to be free, I think you seriously overstate the case for freedom, CSW. The USSR wasn't brought down by revolution, it was brought down by its own incompetence and inefficiencies. Its control over civilian life, while not as total as it had been in the 1930s and 40s, was beyond our comprehension. By 1980, few in the USSR could remember a regime other than the USSR. This is important. If there is nothing else in memory, what is there to go back to?

Thus, we see how states like Oceania and the Draka can exist. Oceania systematically eliminated the population of Oceania that had serious memories of the pre-revolution state. If they were gone, nobody could gainsay the parties claim that things are better in 1984 than at any point prior. There is no record, no eyewitnesses. Nothing. While of course there will be some dissenters, if there are not enough, or they are ruthlessly and efficiently eliminated, they will be destroyed.

Conversely, it is because of the logistical requirements of domination that makes the Drakan state impossible. Any kind of slave-based society, in which large numbers of free-peoples are enslaved, cannot survive to the point where the latter form of domination, totalitarian domination, becomes feasible. Until the point where they can monitor all their serfs at any time, they cannot be safe. To simply chalk it up to some kind of latter-day Spartan Kryptaeia is a cop-out. Even the Spartans had to deal with some dangerous helot rebellions which put the existence of Sparta as risk. The scale of the project required is beyond anything feasible.

Secondly, the structure of the human mind cannot be discounted. There is at least some argument that humans, like many apex predators, have a general aversion to killing each other. We have universal gestures that signal submission, and it takes a great deal of psychological effort to overcome this barrier.

I don't quite agree with it, as we did not evolve as apex predators, and without tools, are hardly even predators at all. But, given the participation rates in combat, it seems that there are at least some indicators that it is rather more difficult to kill people that Das Legio would have us believe.

Of course, this can be overcome. But, even in the most brutal societies OTL, were only made possible by either generations long traditions, that made brutality endemic both within and without of the society. The Mongols were just as brutal within their group as without. However, societies in which brutality was able to be effected outside to a level required has only really been achieved in modern times, namely with the Nazis and Japanese, who were able to do so through modern techniques of propaganda and information filtering. Neither of these are going to be available to the Draka and their survival is problematic.

[Das Legio]

Excellent point Chris. It is too readily forgotten how depressingly easy it is to dominate people.

Despite all of our innate desires to be free, I think you seriously overstate the case for freedom, CSW. The USSR wasn't brought down by revolution, it was brought down by its own incompetence and inefficiencies. Its control over civilian life, while not as total as it had been in the 1930s and 40s, was beyond our comprehension. By 1980, few in the USSR could remember a regime other than the USSR. This is important. If there is nothing else in memory, what is there to go back to?

Thus, we see how states like Oceania and the Draka can exist. Oceania systematically eliminated the population of Oceania that had serious memories of the pre-revolution state. If they were gone, nobody could gainsay the parties claim that things are better in 1984 than at any point prior. There is no record, no eyewitnesses. Nothing. While of course there will be some dissenters, if there are not enough, or they are ruthlessly and efficiently eliminated, they will be destroyed.

Conversely, it is because of the logistical requirements of domination that makes the Drakan state impossible. Any kind of slave-based society, in which large numbers of free-peoples are enslaved, cannot survive to the point where the latter form of domination, totalitarian domination, becomes feasible. Until the point where they can monitor all their serfs at any time, they cannot be safe. To simply chalk it up to some kind of latter-day Spartan Kryptaeia is a cop-out. Even the Spartans had to deal with some dangerous helot rebellions which put the existence of Sparta as risk. The scale of the project required is beyond anything feasible.

Secondly, the structure of the human mind cannot be discounted. There is at least some argument that humans, like many apex predators, have a general aversion to killing each other. We have universal gestures that signal submission, and it takes a great deal of psychological effort to overcome this barrier.

I don't quite agree with it, as we did not evolve as apex predators, and without tools, are hardly even predators at all. But, given the participation rates in combat, it seems that there are at least some indicators that it is rather more difficult to kill people that Das Legio would have us believe.

Of course, this can be overcome. But, even in the most brutal societies OTL, were only made possible by either generations long traditions, that made brutality endemic both within and without of the society. The Mongols were just as brutal within their group as without. However, societies in which brutality was able to be effected outside to a level required has only really been achieved in modern times, namely with the Nazis and Japanese, who were able to do so through modern techniques of propaganda and information filtering. Neither of these are going to be available to the Draka and their survival is problematic.

This and the pure logistical requirements of the conquest is what led me to beleive in the impossibility of it. You have the points right though. See, CSW, I'm not saying the Draka are plausible, to be plausible, they would have to offer the serfs and noticeable increase in standard of living, maybe provide lower-middle class to middle-class comforts for those found exceedingly loyal and hard-working? See, that's the thing they don't.

In order for the Domination to succeed, it would have to offer a reward, not just punishment, to motivate the serfs. The Janissaries could likely have both a low survivability rate and and large reward. Either in rewarding the immediate family and the survivors of the wars or, in true Draka style, have personal serfs of their own. But the main point of the Janissaries would be to show that the harder you work for the Draka, the more you are rewarded.

As far as the slavery monitoring goes, the SD couldn't really start to get its claws in good until about 1830. By that time, there could have been plenty of immigrants and plenty of loyalty amongst certain serfs to have been cultivated. The SD would be incredibly reliant upon loyal serfs to do much of the work of undercover ops.

In other words, they would not only have to be incredibly cruel and brutal[This was already part of Africa :( ], but also keep there word about rewarding loyal serfs to the best the master can. And the Draka would also have to prove that they can keep their serfs safe from unconquered tribes, nations and whatnot. This is the first key thing that I noticed that made me think this isn't plausible. They don't reward the loyal ones. Hell, a lack of visible reward has been hurting our effort in Afghanistan.


As far as the logistical requirement is concerned, it isn't completely impossible, just stupidly hard. Conquering everything up to the southern peripheries of the Congo will be easy in comparison to the rest. In order to have all of Africa by 1900, they will have to keep an average of 5 or more childbirths per Draka woman, a large amount of steady immigration from preferred sources. Let's say that instead of Australia and the French's Hell Island or whatever it is called, Northern European nations and maybe France and a few others, send their prisoners to the Draka. This would also likely mean that America might see less Irish immigrant(But not by too much) along with fewer British and other Northern European nations.Those incapable of co-operation will end up dead fighting in the bush, however, this won't prevent the violent and sociopathic from thriving. See, even sociopaths can work together when they see an apt reward waiting for them too. And it's not like they will be wanting for violence and bloodshed. Not only this, but most Sociopaths actually stay off the radar. You know those guys who can completely screw over a family or even entire towns for profit? Those are the "Normal" Sociopaths. The Draka are likely to cultivate a much larger than average number of the kinds of violent SOBs and sociopaths that could not function in the rest of the world while they could thrive in Drakia. But still, the main thing that would keep the Drakan citizen population down is death by diseases and warfare. This pressure would force them to vector many diseases much faster and earlier along with finding many preventative measures and curative measures along with a massively higher interest in advancing tactics and infantry combat tech. The brute force of the Janissaries can't do everything. I would also expect that most of there enemies are actually wiped-out to 60% or above. The ratios of Citizen/Serf would be much more balanced than in the books. By the time the British would have abolished chattel slavery, we would see (While not too implausible, it is necessary for the Draka to work) the British see slavery and the Africans in a different color(lol). They might not see it as immoral per se, just that, they deserves atleast a few rights. And this is where you could get "Serfs" instead of slaves. Instead of White Man's Burden, you could see a movement of White Man's Destiny or some other crap.


However, these challenges would prevent them form making it to the Sahara and beyond before 1870.


This doesn't change the fact that the Drakan logistics of conquering Africa are nigh-on impossible. It doesn't change some of the outright asspulls that would have to be required. What I am trying to tell you is maybe how the Draka could have happened. And for the record, they would utterly brilliant in the Logistics department.