EPA: Motorcycles and Mutants

[Diamond]

Okay, this is a discussion thread for 'my' version of the rebooted EPA, as opposed to Ran's version, which I think he's going to have a separate thread for.

Now originally when I envisioned EPA, I was picturing a much more well, post-apocalyptic world. Super-science (or any science, for that matter) should be so rare as to be legendary. The most advanced societies are, at most, at a medieval level of advancement, with one or two exceptions like primitive firearms (or a very very few pre-Fall firearms which are used more as status symbols by their owners rather than actual weapons).

Examples of the kind of setting I'd thought about:

1. A Canticle for Leibowitz
2. Planet of the Apes
3. The Islander books by John Maddox Roberts
4. The Battle Circle books by Piers Anthony

Obviously I don't mean that we'd have to slavishly attach ourselves to any one of these concepts, but they're more the general feel I wanted to work towards.

One thing that really bugged me was the way we handled mutants. When I think 'mutant' I picture random mutations, some beneficial, some not, most grotesque in appearance, and very few that are the same from individual to individual. More like the Pope's Children in Canticle for Leibowitz rather than a whole organized separate race. (See attached pictures below.)

Another thing I want to do away with this time around is all the lingering super-science: no Iron Men. No Recyclers. No Skytraders. No Wyverns. Things I thought did work well were the Angels (who I think we ought to make a still-vital and powerful group this time around), the Eaters, the Queen Mother, and various nation-states that we came up with.

The other major thing that bugged me was the huge-ass Ice Age. Really, we didn't handle it very well in terms of climate and ecological effects, and I think we could do without it next time around.

My intention is to work towards a more 'soft science' approach than Ran; in many ways, I'd like to see almost a fantasy approach. We could even have 'magic' - mutant psionic abilities. It's my intention not to make everything 'my way or the highway'; I just think many of us succumbed to the Shared World idea of amping our various entries/nations to make them more powerful than the competition instead of working towards a cohesive world. God-modding isn't cool in a Shared Worlds game, and even less so in what's supposed to be a collaborative world-building project.

So those are my initial thoughts - what does everyone else think?

[Bruno]

Examples of the kind of setting I'd thought about:

1. A Canticle for Leibowitz
2. Planet of the Apes
3. The Islander books by John Maddox Roberts
4. The Battle Circle books by Piers Anthony


This.

This was what I envisioned as well. A few bits and pieces of 'hi-tech' science survived but most of the world is basically divided between the 'Ruined Wastelands' and 'Post-Fall Societies'.

Most societies were still struggling to get back up and running (Remember my 'Isle of Montreal' population figures? 20,000 people was considered a 'big city'). Tech would be quite low with *maybe* late 19th century/early 20th century being pretty much the highest level achieved by any society in North America.

A few lucky bastards have managed to get some of the equipment lying around up and running again or reverse engineered it (the Angels, for example--especially with their near religious obsession with maintaining their bikes) but for the most part--it's 'lost' or semi-mythical or seen in much the same way as, say, a Vorpal +6 Sword from a Dungeons and Dragons game.

[Sir Ironside]

More Gamma World, less RIFTS?

[Diamond]

More Gamma World, less RIFTS?

I haven't played Gamma World in literally decades, but from what I can remember, yes. Definitely not Rifts. That is one of the busiest and most ineffective setting I've ever seen.

[Sir Ironside]

I haven't played Gamma World in literally decades, but from what I can remember, yes. Definitely not Rifts. That is one of the busiest and most ineffective setting I've ever seen.

A 7th Edition has been released, by Wizards of the Coast, though I don't think that it is as good as the 6th Edition which was released by Sword & Sorcery Studios.

[Emote Control]

I would say that even Gamma World is too "high PA" for what we are trying to do. Operational energy weapons, robots as player characters -- no.

[Diamond]

I would say that even Gamma World is too "high PA" for what we are trying to do. Operational energy weapons, robots as player characters -- no.

Yep, you're right. I did a little research/reading/remembering on Gamma World this afternoon, and yeah. Too much.

[Emote Control]

Darwin's World has the same problem, though too a lesser degree. In fact, I don't think that anyone has tried to the kind of low-PA that we have tried to do in a main roleplaying game. There was "Amrica" for Post-Apocalyptic Hero, but that was just a play option in the appendix rather than a standalone book.

[Diamond]

One thing I'd like to do this time around, since a couple people wanted to, is write out the events of the Fall before we start posting entries, so we have some kind of solid framework to start from. GBW has a good scenario posted in the AH forum about Desert Storm turning into WW3 that I think would make good 'starting conditions'.

The setting itself would be set about 150 years later.

[Diamond]

This was my idea of a random mutant:

[Alex]

I would be interested to participate, time allowing. Definitely could rework the Angels into something more fitting this - if we are looking at 150 years after the Fall, then perhaps it could be closer to the height of the Hordes' power.

I wonder, would it be better to set it in an AH universe rather than in "future"? This way we can severely limit maximum pre-Fall technological levels to something closer to maybe 1990s? Perhaps USSR did not dissolve, but the 1991 coup resulted in hardliners taking power, and launching the nuclear war as their last hooray? Or maybe Reagan's "the bombs will start falling in five minutes" joke is not a joke after all... or anything similar. If the apocalypse happens at any point between 1980 and 2010, we could have a semi-realistic AH that should give us more of a defined setting that we can figure out, at least in basic detail.

What do you guys think?

[Diamond]

That was my plan, Alex. Using GBW's scenario as inspiration, I'm thinking of exactly that - a hardline Soviet gov't reassumes power in the mid-90s and WW3 happens soon after.

Taking a cue from Ran, what I'm working on right now is a sort of 'preface' to this whole thing, including what caused the Fall, initial broad starting conditions for the North American continent (which BTW since this is going to be relatively close to us in terms of time, like 2144 or thereabouts so I thought we'd just call it 'North America' :D), and a base map showing nuclear hits, still-active radiation zones, and general geographic areas, with very brief notes on what kind of cultures might be found there. That last bit isn't to try to stilt anyone's creativity; rather what I'm hoping is that if I give some kind of broad outline, it'll help the whole thing hang together a little better.

As far as the geography goes, it's my intention not to introduce any wild geological upheaval this time around, unless anyone has any objections. So no ravaged California coastline.

[Bruno]

I really like the fact that we're going to have two completely different PAE scenarios going on here: Diamond's c. 2000 WW III scenario and Ran's slightly uber tech scenario.

Thinking it over--a lot of the entries that we've written can be mixed and matched like crazy and if we have some idea that doesn't quite fit into one scenario we can certainly fit it into the other without stepping onto too many toes.

[Diamond]

Also, don't feel like you have to re-use any of your old entries if you don't feel like it. Sure, if some of them fit in to the new setting(s), and you want to tweak them slightly, feel free. But don't feel like it's mandatory.

[Diamond]

So this is what I was thinking in terms of areas that are still highly radioactive 150 years or so after WW3. Thoughts?

[Alex]

Perhaps if you also add Atlanta/Birmingham areas, as well as something further up north into Canada (Ottawa?), and Mexico City, it would be pretty reasonable.

[Haggis]

Honestly if you're gonna have a place get nuked in the South it'd be Huntsville, not Birmingham. Redstone Arsenal is one of the larger aerospace research bases in the US.

[Diamond]

My thought was yeah, a whole lotta other places got nuked too, but these are just the areas that took it the heaviest, so they still have lots of lingering radiation and nastiness. Remember this is a century and a half later, so a lot of stuff would have bled away by then.

I also changed the above map to reflect different 'regions'. These would be broad geographic areas where, while all the civilizations in each are not identical, they would be broadly similar; i.e. they'd all be able with a bit of effort to understand each other's dialects (while someone from The Caribbean might not understand a word of what someone from the Pacific Northwest is saying); and the cultures/religions/whatnot in each region would (again) be broadly similar.

Hopefully this helps to create a more cohesive world, while still allowing for the odd reclusive mutant community, religious enclave, cultural throwbacks, etc.

Thoughts?

[Bruno]

Thoughts?

I like it. like it a lot.


My thought was yeah, a whole lotta other places got nuked too, but these are just the areas that took it the heaviest, so they still have lots of lingering radiation and nastiness. Remember this is a century and a half later, so a lot of stuff would have bled away by then.


Good point. Plus there's all the chemical/oil by products/heavy metals stuff from large industrialized areas that's going to hang around for a while.

That area up in Eastern Canada--is that Ottawa or Montreal or just represents a 'smear' of the two?


I also changed the above map to reflect different 'regions'. These would be broad geographic areas where, while all the civilizations in each are not identical, they would be broadly similar; i.e. they'd all be able with a bit of effort to understand each other's dialects (while someone from The Caribbean might not understand a word of what someone from the Pacific Northwest is saying); and the cultures/religions/whatnot in each region would (again) be broadly similar.


This I really like--plus it makes perfect sense. Lots of bits and pieces of the transporation system will survive and all the refugees and whatnot are going to be using them to move around and settle in new locations. Plus whatever governments that show up are going to be limited in ability to control beyond their little chunk of turf, so even if whatever governments show up are just one long series of failed nation-states after another, they're going to leave a broadly defined 'stamp' on that region.

[Diamond]

That area up in Eastern Canada--is that Ottawa or Montreal or just represents a 'smear' of the two?

A smear of the two. :D

Also, I wanted to leave New York untouched (at least by nukes). Since for many of us NYC represents 'the modern city', I thought it would be cool to leave it to decay on its own, providing us with a playground where we could have stuff like a flooded Manhattan with feuding Mad-Max style gangs or whatever else.

[Bruno]

A smear of the two. :D

Also, I wanted to leave New York untouched (at least by nukes). Since for many of us NYC represents 'the modern city', I thought it would be cool to leave it to decay on its own, providing us with a playground where we could have stuff like a flooded Manhattan with feuding Mad-Max style gangs or whatever else.

Awesome.

What are the approx. cities that are the rest of those Death Zones?

[Diamond]

Roughly, Seattle, San Francisco/Oakland, Los Angeles, Chicago, Ottawa/Montreal, Washington DC, Miami, Fort Worth/Dallas, and a broad smear across Colorado that resulted from the slagging of most of the state to take out NORAD.

[Diamond]

Here's the set-up I was looking at. Obviously, it's not exhaustive, but then again I don't think it needs to be. It just needs to be solid enough to avoid the problems we had in Version One. Thanks to GBW for the idea, although I moved the dates up a couple years. Thoughts?

______________________________

The Old World ended in fire and darkness. Though few now, a century and a half later, remember the causes.

In the early years of the last decade of the twentieth century, there existed two great, continent-spanning superpowers: The United States of America and the Soviet Union. One of these great nations was crumbling from within; its days were numbered. The other, though still internally stable, suffered from looming economic crises, poor leadership, and constant overseas wars and entanglements.

In the early 90s, the world was changing rapidly. The Soviet Union was in freefall – its days were numbered, to the shock and surprise of many around the world. Despite its faults, few suspected the end of the world’s largest communist power could happen so quickly. Though the future that Mikhail Gorbachev and other progressive leaders promised seemed bright, ultimately their voices were too few and too small.

In 1994, a Soviet Army general named Vasiliy Maksimov, with strong support from members of the erstwhile KGB, began a coup that was to result in the end of the modern world. Seizing ICBM missile bases in Siberia and the Urals, he began a march on Moscow backed by nuclear might. The United States, still winding down its invasion of Iraq and cowing of Saddam Hussein, made threatening noises, but ultimately did nothing, all too aware of the consequences of a wrong move.

From February through April of 1994, the world waited, aghast. In May, US President Clinton agreed to coordinate with NATO to bring their European forces up to full readiness. Naval forces were moved into the seas near the USSR to prepare for a possible intervention.

No one can be sure which Soviet missile installation fired first, or why, but that it happened is indisputable. On the morning of June 2nd, 1994, a missile launch was reported in the Ural Mountains – its target was Berlin, Germany. Panic reigned throughout Europe and the Soviet Union. Maksimov, still attempting to starve out the remaining loyalist forces that held Moscow (Gorbachev had been killed by snipers the month before), suffered what appeared to be a stroke. Decapitated and writhing, leaderless, the Soviet military machine went mad. Multiple ICBM launches were reported throughout the Soviet Union. NATO and Chinese missiles flew in response, and within hours, much of the world was in flames. The Soviet Union was utterly devastated, as was much of Europe, China, and East Asia. The United States suffered multiple nuclear strikes, numbering perhaps as high as four dozen. Many Soviet missiles malfunctioned or were brought down before impact, but the destruction in North America was still staggering. Across the world, clouds of fallout were borne on the winds, killing millions more. …And the plagues and famines which followed were worse yet.

By 1995, over three quarters of the world’s populations was dead, and the planet was a charnel house, floating alone in the night...

[Alex]

I like the ideas so far. The only thing is, it sounds like the apocalypse of 1994-5 is not sufficient in scale to truly throw the species back several centuries. Perhaps it could be made more severe through the release of biological weapons - a massive plague that would reduce the world population in 2000 to about 5% of its former size and falling. The population numbers would stabilize somewhat by 2020, and begin growing again after that time.

Keep in mind also that many of the things that were kept more or less in check through First World intervention (i.e. AIDS, but perhaps other things too) would spread and essentially result in some continents being depopulated (I'm thinking Africa here, but much of Eurasia and America too). I am seeing a massive die-off - at the lowest point it could be as low as 1% of Earth's pre-war population, or roughly 60 million people spread out in fewer survivor communities. A town of 10,000 would be seen as a metropolis in 2140 (by comparison, Athens at its height had about 30,000 citizens, so it is still sizeable enough for a fully functioning civil society). But, I would see the population of the planet by 2140 at roughly 150-200 million people, perhaps even 300 million (although that would be kind of pushing it, considering low life expectancy and high rates of child and adult mortality).

Does this sound more or less reasonable?

By the way, I would love to see the Moremen brought back :)

[Diamond]

IDoes this sound more or less reasonable?
Yep, I'll continue fine-tuning. Thanks for the input!

By the way, I would love to see the Moremen brought back :)
I'm considering it strongly. :D Although their origins and territory will be changed.

[Bruno]

I like the ideas so far. The only thing is, it sounds like the apocalypse of 1994-5 is not sufficient in scale to truly throw the species back several centuries. Perhaps it could be made more severe through the release of biological weapons - a massive plague that would reduce the world population in 2000 to about 5% of its former size and falling. The population numbers would stabilize somewhat by 2020, and begin growing again after that time.

Agreed. Throw in some chemical weapons while you're at it.

Another thing to keep in mind are all the nuclear reactors, chemical factories and so forth that might go critical without anyone keeping an eye on them. Think of all the meltdowns and gas factory explosions and whatnot that may burn out of control and dump all kinds of nasty shit into the surrounding areas.

[Sir Ironside]

Of course you are gonna have to come up with a reasonably plausible explination for type of mutations that you want the mutants to have.

[Diamond]

Of course you are gonna have to come up with a reasonably plausible explination for type of mutations that you want the mutants to have.

Well, that's something we need to discuss. My inclination is to just go with an 80s post-apocalypse movie type of explanation: in other words, we don't need to be scientific about it. As mentioned elsewhere, Ran's going more for realism, while I'm going more for stylized, 'movie-fied' types of things.

But even better would be to come up with an explanation that makes sense for stuff like that. Cause I like to have my cake and eat it too.

[Big Tex]

A bit of a question on the map. Why did Corpus Christi warrant getting the shit nuked out of it. They have a naval base there but its nothing special compared to say Pensacola. Just curious :chuckle:

Also I would love to see Mexico City, maybe Veracruz, and perhaps Havana get nuked in this world. EPA Zero's Latin America was far to stable. While that provided lots of fun in the semi-realistic environment that it became, in the pulpy mutants and motorcycles environment there needs to be more Mexican wasteland.

Very excited for this guys. RL is gonna keep me fairly quiet for some time but I'd love to constribute on occasion. Already got some fun ideas I'd like to explore! :tup:

[Diamond]

A bit of a question on the map. Why did Corpus Christi warrant getting the shit nuked out of it. They have a naval base there but its nothing special compared to say Pensacola. Just curious :chuckle:

Also I would love to see Mexico City, maybe Veracruz, and perhaps Havana get nuked in this world. EPA Zero's Latin America was far to stable. While that provided lots of fun in the semi-realistic environment that it became, in the pulpy mutants and motorcycles environment there needs to be more Mexican wasteland.

Agreed. Will correct. :)

[GBW]

Posted a list of vehicles Circa 1991 that would be able to have a wood gas generator installed without needing a trailer in the Notes thread.

[Diamond]

Like Ran, I've had some RL issues going on this week that have prevented me from working on M&M except in fits and starts, so I'm shooting for probably the week after Thanksgiving to get this show on the road. I'll be down at my dad's next week, so won't get much writing done then.

What I'd like folks to do is start getting ready with their 'baseline' entries. I know you can't fine-tune 'em completely until I finish the TL, but do what you can. I think the first round of posting will be putting up these anchor societies, after which we can talk some more about the general feel that we'd like to see for each Region.

[GBW]

I've added a miscellaneous section to the bottom of the Cultural section of the Notes thread, including Bruno's observation on monster trucks.

[EMC]

Diamond, let me know if I can help with the Rockies area, I can think of a few large towns for survival areas as a contrast to your Moremen.

[Diamond]

Okay, I just got back from my mini-holiday. Let me recuperate from that hellacious drive, and then I'll re-write the timeline and we can get going on this thing.


Diamond, let me know if I can help with the Rockies area, I can think of a few large towns for survival areas as a contrast to your Moremen.

Sounds good; the Moremen'll need food - I mean, uh, neighbors. :D

[GBW]

So how's the timeline coming along, Diamond?

[Diamond]

So how's the timeline coming along, Diamond?

Gimme another day or two?

[Bruno]

Gimme another day or two?

No problems with me. Need to wait until the weekend to work on my entry in any case.

[GBW]

No problems with me. Need to wait until the weekend to work on my entry in any case.
I've been getting some broad outlines in place, but I've been waiting for the timeline to come up with anything concrete. Were we supposed to have them ready to go?

[EMC]

I probably need the timeline before actually start my entry. I need something to work off of...

[Bruno]

I've been getting some broad outlines in place, but I've been waiting for the timeline to come up with anything concrete. Were we supposed to have them ready to go?

Well, ready-ish...

[Diamond]

I've been getting some broad outlines in place, but I've been waiting for the timeline to come up with anything concrete. Were we supposed to have them ready to go?

Nah, I didn't expect anyone to have anything finished yet. You may possibly have to tweak things depending on how the timeline affects your entry(s).

[EMC]

any updates on this?

[Diamond]

Working on it. Things have been tough money-wise at Casa Del Diamond, and I've been concentrating on finding a job. But I hope to have things up and running next week.

[GBW]

What does everyone think of having the map include radioactive areas where the missile silos where? North Dakota would probably be the worst, but there would be ones of varying size and intensity in Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado (which we already agreed would have one), Kansas, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, North Carolina, South Dakota, and Wyoming.

Maybe we could remove or tone down the existing ones around Seattle, in Texas, and around Chicago to balance things out. Texas' targets are more spread out, while the few nukes that fell in the Pacific Northwest and Illinois shouldn't really be enough to create radioactive zones that would persist.

[GBW]

Has everyone lost interest? Or is the TL that bad?

[Diamond]

Well, like I told you guys in PMs, I can't get into it right now for various reasons. I think the TL looks pretty good, actually, but someone needs to step up and say Yes, I want to run this, or yeah, it's going to die on the vine.