The Dumbasseries of World War

[CSW]

Originally Posted by NomadicSky

There's no need to drive them off the planet. We can make easier agreements.

And you're nuts...Turkey has had that land for centuries its not Greek will probably never be Greek again.

On Turkey:
The Germans held Prussia for 700 years. Length of occupation means nothing. So could it be with Turkey, maybe not.

And there sin't actually a need to force off the individual Lizards off the Earth, but Race control of any part of the Earth is anathema. And this thread makes it clear I need to make a point: my anger is not at the Lizards, for they go forth and conquer all that is weaker than themselves. This is right and proper. My anger, if there is any towards the characters of Worldwar, it is that the Humans have chosen not to make the Lizards pay the full price of daring to challenge Human rule of the Human homeworld. They are fucktards, and douchebags, and pussies for tolerating an Earth that is only half under the rule of Man.

[Tony Jones]

Originally Posted by CSW

There are things worth fighting for, dying for.

Can't dispute that.

Originally Posted by CSW

The homeland is always one of them.

But I can imagine there were plenty of dissidents in Soviet Russia, or Nazi Germany, who might well disagree with you on this part...

Originally Posted by CSW

For non-Humans to control a single spot of the Earth is the unholiest of desecrations. That Lizards were born on Tosev makes no difference at all: Earth is the birthright of Humanity, and Humanity alone. If the Lizards continue to dwell on the Earth, it must be under Human rule and Human auspices, and given the circumstances of their arrival, Humanity is in no way bound to be so generous.

I imagine exactly the same logic has been applied to humans of other racial/ethnic/political/cultural groups from time to time. Just substitute your preferred groups for 'humans' and 'lizards'.

[CSW]

Originally Posted by Tony Jones

I imagine exactly the same logic has been applied to humans of other racial/ethnic/political/cultural groups from time to time. Just substitute your preferred groups for 'humans' and 'lizards'.

You assume that I'd have a problem disagreeing with that assumption, if only as a broad principle. In fact, I say you are exactly right, and in those situations, I am likely to apply that logic in much the same way. I believe in Nationalism and assimilation, and have no use for any manner of long term term pluralism. My desire to see the Race's Empire pushed off Earth is exactly the same as my desire to see the French evicted from German soil in a world where Napoleon's annexations of the Rhine were not reversed. Now, to avoid idiotic interpretations, the Lizard citizens of the United States don't need to go. But any Lizard who wants to live in Australia and not become a citizen of the reconstituted Dominion of Australia need to be given the boot post haste.

[NomadicSky]

There aren't any humans in Australia anymore haven't been for a while. I think there are still some in Tasmania but Australia proper they got moved out long along ago.

The Race aren't any different than humans have been. Do you live in North America...because uh...thats not ours either. Well I'm sure there are bits of native people in your genes just like most Americans...but you're probably mostly of European decent. Should we have to pay for the sins of our ancestors? Suppose say the Cherokee decided to go on a killing spree through northern Georgia...you cool with that?

[CSW]

If they can challenge us, and we are to stupid, weak or incompetent to stop them, then we deserve whatever fate they decide to inflict upon us. Such is natural selection rooting out the weak.

[NomadicSky]

By your own logic humanity had it coming to them for not being able to fight off the Race in the first place. So them mercifully allowing some nations to survive independent was a gift upon an inferior weak species.

[CSW]

Where you not paying attention to the books? Cairo came about because the Lizard Command came to realize that they were no longer capable of conquering the industrial world without nuking the Earth uninhabitable, which they were no longer capable of doing after Dora's guns in 42. This was no gift. It was a ceasefire.

But none of that remotely matters. In 2020, the Humans have both the brute power to destroy the Race's hold on Earth and the leverage to get the Lizards to leave without a fight. Power politics is a zero sum game: those who win win at the expense of the losers. That the Humans would even think of mutual coexistence in terms of aliens controlling any part of the Earth is not only morally unsatisfying, it's also illogical and horrible plotting.

That ending is shit, and shit on every level. The Race exists to be defeated, and when they Human Race has the Lizards prostrate, they choose to leave half the earth and more than half of the Human Race in bondage. That is an act of cowardice so vile there is no defense. You cannot win this fight because to defend Turtledove is objectively wrong.

[NomadicSky]

We have Nazis keeping humans in bondage the Lizards are actually better masters than humans treat other humans.

[CSW]

Originally Posted by NomadicSky

We have Nazis keeping humans in bondage the Lizards are actually better masters than humans treat other humans.

Unless the Lizard world is going to be turned over to the graces of the National Socialist German Workers Party, what you said is insepid: as true as it is irrelevent.

[NomadicSky]

Originally Posted by CSW

Unless the Lizard world is going to be turned over to the graces of the National Socialist German Workers Party, what you said is insepid: as true as it is irrelevent.

I think its because I see them as people...on the same level as us. You don't. They came they acted exactly like us if we were higher tech during our colonial mindset times. They have our flaws, our feelings, and they can change.

Nuking their home world then spraying it with mutagens. It may take 20 years but they will find out what we did and when they do they'll take it out on us.

[CSW]

All of what you say is true, except that I do see them as people. Thing is, they occupy half of our world. Beyond any notion of deserving it, if the Lizards had nuked Earth and sprayed mutigens into the ruins, it would not only be justified but the only moral choice if that was the only way to free half of Tau Ceti from Human rule.

You seem to think my ruthlessness stems from the Lizards being non-human. You are wrong

[MrP]

Originally Posted by CSW

All of what you say is true, except that I do see them as people. Thing is, they occupy half of our world. Beyond any notion of deserving it, if the Lizards had nuked Earth and sprayed mutigens into the ruins, it would not only be justified but the only moral choice if that was the only way to free half of Tau Ceti from Human rule.

You seem to think my ruthlessness stems from the Lizards being non-human. You are wrong

I suspect most of us reading suspect it stems from either immaturity or some sort of unfortunate mental problem, old boy. It probably depends on how generous your readers are feeling.

[CSW]

Not mental instability at all my good sir! I simply have no innate aversion to killing people when, inevitability, it becomes necessary. And and Human control of the Earth is one of those occurrences where genocide needs to be on the table. In the Cold War we were willing to exterminate the Russians and Chinese for about the same. Calling such ruthless political realism mental instability or immaturity demonstrates a profound ignorance of both international relations and history, and neither is becoming for anyone who wishes to discuss Historical Counterfactuals.

[Straha]

Why are you on an AH forum as opposed to warhammer 40k forum?

[MrP]

Originally Posted by CSW

Not mental instability at all my good sir! I simply have no innate aversion to killing people when, inevitability, it becomes necessary. And and Human control of the Earth is one of those occurrences where genocide needs to be on the table. In the Cold War we were willing to exterminate the Russians and Chinese for about the same. Calling such ruthless political realism mental instability or immaturity demonstrates a profound ignorance of both international relations and history, and neither is becoming for anyone who wishes to discuss Historical Counterfactuals.

Lawks, even if I were to accept your contemptible and risible position, it's almost as if I were writing from 2012 and not the Cold War! Egad! Gadzooks! Someone lock me up in a mental asylum until I discern that it is a date that is equal to or earlier than the end of the Cold War! Goldarned Politburo!

[Straha]

Originally Posted by CSW

Not mental instability at all my good sir! I simply have no innate aversion to killing people when, inevitability, it becomes necessary. And and Human control of the Earth is one of those occurrences where genocide needs to be on the table. In the Cold War we were willing to exterminate the Russians and Chinese for about the same. Calling such ruthless political realism mental instability or immaturity demonstrates a profound ignorance of both international relations and history, and neither is becoming for anyone who wishes to discuss Historical Counterfactuals.

why

[CSW]

Because the revulsion for large scale killing and imperialism taints perceptions of the two greatest political dynamics in history, both good and bad. In this, I can point directly at Turtledove and Sterling, both of whom have perspectives so out of tune with the flow of history they cripple their ability to use Counterfactuals as diagnostic tools. In Sterling's case, his obsession with Western dichotomies of good and evil cause the Draka to become a Villian Sue dystopia, as well as requiring stupidity from the rest of the world that completely invalidates whatever point he was trying to make. Turtledove is in fact worse, and in a steady stream of garbage he describes the US not annexing the CSA following WWI, the Allies withdrawing from Germany because of Werewolf terrorism directed by Heidrich and the United States failing to force the Lizards of the Earth when their Empire is vulnerable in a way it had never been before and would probably never be again. Combined with the incredible arrogance that worlds that reject or remain without American influence, I think it is because he has swallowed American propaganda hook line and sinker, that without us Communists would still rule in Russia and Nazis in Europe, all the people's of the world powerless to change their own destinies. Not even horrific nuclear war with the Race could end Nazi rule over Germany. What tripe! Beyond this, he seems uncomfortable with the notion that the United States does shitty things systemically. To wit: the United States has never been above mass murder, democide, genocide and murderous imperialism for fun and profit. He assumes that America is a moral government systemically, and his morality like so many in the post modern era, is that of the pussy and the fool. The unwillingness to slit throats, to burn cities to the ground, and an aversion to killing that while it claims to be righteous is in fact based in dogmatic sentimentalism. This sentimentalism is most strongly in the hysterical screeching that war crimes and genocide are never viable options, when in fact they can be. It is one thing to want to avoid such unpleasantries, but it is another thing to refuse to conemtplate them regardless of circumstance.

Turtledove's perceptual biases ensure that everything he tries to write may begin with an interesting premise, but goes off the rails very shortly thereafter. The notion of the CSA as an industrial power, having anything near parity with the US, the belief the Werewolves could stand a chance against the Allies much less the Red Army and that the Lizards would be allowed to keep their Earth Empire shows definitely that not only is Turtledove a piss poor writer, but he knows nothing of Human Nature, and because of this, any Histroical observation he tries to bring is intellectually bankrupt.

Knowing what the fuck you're talking about is important in any discussion. Any talk not based in understanding is wish fullment and wankery. Which is precisely why some much of AH sucks sweaty ball sac.

[Straha]

tl;dr

provide a summary that we might actually read

[MrP]

I agree with Straha.

[NomadicSky]

CSW-I do agree with two points you made.

1. The whole Nazi rule in Europe thing, after that come the fuck on...everyone would be freed not just France. Europe would have Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, ect...once again. Although the Slavic countries were probably ravaged so badly but they might end up under Race control... additional territory to the Race as compromise for a war started by the Germans.

2. The US not re-annexing the CSA at the end of WWI... Why? Its plausible they'd do what they did...Although I always figured they'd have broken up Dixie more... Annexing all of Virginia, (what shame that would have been loosing the state containing your capitol city, Kentucky, Tennessee. Establishing an intact Texas as a sovereign nation of its own (though in reality its a puppet like Quebec). Annexing the two Mexican states. Independent Cuba. Leave the CSA with the Carolinas, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana. Then make em use the seven star stars and bars and establish a puppet government based out of Colombia, SC.

He tried to hard to make it like OUR world in those books, to many parallels...when I got to the black holocaust I was like WHAT. The Jews were a small minority Featherstone is trying to kill HALF the population. Bullshit.

[CSW]

Originally Posted by Straha

tl;dr

provide a summary that we might actually read

Tldr is not my problem. Complex ideas, or adequate refutations of ignorance need to be thorough.

[American God]

Originally Posted by CSW

This sentimentalism is most strongly in the hysterical screeching that war crimes and genocide are never viable options, when in fact they can be.

NOT at this site, however.

Please consider the wisdom of abiding by the rules of the site during your one week suspension.

[MrP]

Excised as harmony is a nice thing.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by American God

NOT at this site, however.

Please consider the wisdom of abiding by the rules of the site during your one week suspension.

That said, contemplating them in allohistorical context is not against the rules of the site. If it was, we would have to whitewash or ignore large swathes of history, where genocide, ethnic cleansing, and other morally reprehensible things took place. It is entirely possible to contemplate counterfactual events where such things take place, are propagated, or are executed as solutions.

To make it clear: advocating genocide/ethnic cleansing/etc is against the rules of this site. Discussing it in the context of history or counterfactual history is not.

Therefore, suspension is rescinded.

CSW's views might not be popular, but in my opinion his statements stop at discussing reprehensible things in historical/counterfactual context. They do not call for genocide or ethnic cleansing as it stands now, but they do point out that such options were taken in the past, are taking place in some parts of the world as I am writing this, and it can only be expected that they might be considered in the future.

[MrP]

Originally Posted by Alex

That said, contemplating them in allohistorical context is not against the rules of the site. If it was, we would have to whitewash or ignore large swathes of history, where genocide, ethnic cleansing, and other morally reprehensible things took place. It is entirely possible to contemplate counterfactual events where such things take place, are propagated, or are executed as solutions.

To make it clear: advocating genocide/ethnic cleansing/etc is against the rules of this site. Discussing it in the context of history or counterfactual history is not.

Therefore, suspension is rescinded.

CSW's views might not be popular, but in my opinion his statements stop at discussing reprehensible things in historical/counterfactual context. They do not call for genocide or ethnic cleansing as it stands now, but they do point out that such options were taken in the past, are taking place in some parts of the world as I am writing this, and it can only be expected that they might be considered in the future.

I hope you don't mind if I disagree, old boy. While there is inarguably a historical context to part of what CSW has said -

Originally Posted by CSW

As much as disagree where the German Polish border is, the acts that created that border were the best possible course for German Polish relations: all Germans on one side of the border, and all Poles on the other without exception.

- I regard the following highlighted parts - at least - as advocating ethnic cleansing:

Originally Posted by CSW

And Steve, you don't know me. You don't know me cause you even had to ask that question. If believe that most of Turkey truly belongs to the Greeks, what on Earth do you think I believe about Kosovo? But as for ethnic cleansing, that is merely the inevitable result of refusing to engage in population transfers. Multiple ethnic groups living side by side in the same state is poisonous and a disaster waiting to happen when assimilation is impossible, as it is the case in much of Europe. As much as disagree where the German Polish border is, the acts that created that border were the best possible course for German Polish relations: all Germans on one side of the border, and all Poles on the other without exception. It is the only workable solution to any ethnic conflict of interest, although in some cases, partition is impossible and one side must leave unilaterally. This will be the fate of the peoples of the Holy Land, one way or another.

He has stated that past ethnic cleansing was beneficial, and implied that ethnic cleansing or "population transfers" (ethnic cleansing by another name) would be beneficial to Europe's future, stated that "assimilation is impossible...in much of Europe", which is intellectually dishonest, since it gives no specifics, giving instead a nebulous definition, rendering is as worthy a statement as "wallpaper is widespread in much of Europe". He further suggests that it is "the only workable solution to any ethnic conflict of interest," which is a clear endorsement of the practice of ethnic cleansing. The following appals me utterly, now I've gone back and read it.

Originally Posted by CSW

The unwillingness to slit throats, to burn cities to the ground, and an aversion to killing that while it claims to be righteous is in fact based in dogmatic sentimentalism. This sentimentalism is most strongly in the hysterical screeching that war crimes and genocide are never viable options, when in fact they can be. It is one thing to want to avoid such unpleasantries, but it is another thing to refuse to conemtplate them regardless of circumstance.

I cannot fathom how genocide is supposed to be a "viable option", unless one's objective is to be evil. Perhaps it's the most cold-blooded way imaginable of saying "Hitler didn't have enough food because of the blockade of Europe, so wiping out the Jews was in part pragmatic" or perhaps it's supposedly a good idea because the Armenians used it to eliminate their neighbours, and then the Ottomans killed hundreds of thousands of them in removing them from the area. They are only "viable options" if one has no respect for human life and would sooner bathe in blood than talk with someone one disagrees with.